Coronavirus thread

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Government having a plan for how to save the economy = planned economy = Communism.

Plans are a slippery slope. Just pick a direction, put on a blindfold, start walking and trust in the Lord.

Just a closer walk with thee, Lord

[PartyOf5]

Have the godamn discussion then. Every time opening up the economy comes up, the response is invariably: not yet.

When asked when, the response is: don't know.

When asked what it would take, the response is: we need tests.

End of discussion. No plan in sight.

I tried to start the discussion. I already said I'm in favor of opening things up, but with measures in place. Voluntary wearing of masks is not a solution since asymptomatic people can spread it.

I say some things can be opened up now. When our state closed golf courses I was in favor of opening them up, with conditions. They were opened, with conditions. Now you have those businesses making money and people working while still being safe.

So let's have that conversion without the "why they want Po5 to die" bullshit.

[BjornP]

Since March when our PM declared the restrictions, I've seen only a single person wearing a mask in the city while doing my grocery shopping or other errands.

[Xenophon]

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

Educated in the need to take precautions such as wearing masks and keeping a safe distance apart, willing to take those precautions and able to comply ie enough masks available.
When your response to those recommendations is ''muh freedoms'' there's still a long way to go.

Several countries such as South Korea, Germany, Singapore are able to comply with the recommendations and are slowly opening up but if you rush into it under the guise of freedoms, rights and the goddamn constitution
there will be no public confidence and half the population will continue to stay at home anyway.

Don't hedge, Monte. What is the "new normal" exactly? How is full education AND engagement by world communities determined to meet this "new normal"? When is a community fully empowered to live under a "new normal".
I need details, man. Timelines. Costs. Metrics. What is actually being proposed?

Because I edit a lot of buzzword soup for a living, and that shit right there is buzzword soup.
It means nothing.

New normal. Flatten the Curve. Keep communities safe. Experts say. blah blah blah

[Montegriffo]

Have the godamn discussion then. Every time opening up the economy comes up, the response is invariably: not yet.

When asked when, the response is: don't know.

When asked what it would take, the response is: we need tests.

End of discussion. No plan in sight.

I have tried. Twice in the last 3 days alone I've talked about the conditions necessary to relax the shutdown and both times it resulted in zero discussion from anyone in a rush to open up the economy

https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315673
https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315963

No, Boris is listening to his advisors and not prepared to talk about dates until the 5 conditions for a safe end to the shutdown have been met.

1: The NHS has the capacity to provide critical care right across the UK.
2: A sustained and consistent fall in daily deaths from coronavirus.
3: The rate of infection has decreased to manageable levels across the board.
4: Operational challenges including testing and PPE are in hand, with supply able to meet future demand.
5: Confidence that any adjustments to the current measures will not risk a second peak of infections (that overwhelms the NHS)

The WHO recommends 6 conditions.

1. Disease transmission is under control

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

I want to take these recommendations as seriously as I can, because I believe you are arguing in good faith.

1. Disease transmission is under control.

How? There isn't going to be a vaccine for some time, if ever, for the same reason that there isn't a vaccine for SARS and a vaccine of only limited efficacy for MERS.

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

How? With the transmission rate and huge amount of asymptomatic carriers, this is more or less impossible, and there is no plan to actually achieve this herculean task.

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

We already have all the tools we need for this.

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

We already know how to achieve this, and have all the tools we need.

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

We already know how to achieve this and have all the tools we need.

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

I don't know exactly what this means, but I am fairly certain it is not something that can be achieved through shelter-in-place, or social distancing, or more tests, or more PPE.

Here is the ugly truth. It doesn't matter how long we shelter in place, or how many tests we have. We are going to be in the exact same position as we are right now until we have herd immunity or a vaccine. As stated earlier, there is not a vaccine on the horizon, and there may not be one.

In the absence of a vaccine, the only way to keep transmission under control is to reduce the RO number to less than 1 and keep it there.
This involves social distancing, PPE, testing and tracing etc.
Rushing out to get a haircut, swarming all over the beaches or protesting about your constitutional rights will not achieve it.
This is going to involve a slow lifting of restrictions, monitoring and re-applying the restrictions if the rate of infection starts to rise again.
The more people prepared to accept this ''new normal'' the quicker the process will be.
Basically, it will need people to behave like adults and accept the advice of experts far more knowledgable about pandemics than the average forum shitposter.
I don't hold out much hope for those far more concerned about the falling approval rates of the Trump administration than the continuing high rates of infections and deaths.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Have the godamn discussion then. Every time opening up the economy comes up, the response is invariably: not yet.

When asked when, the response is: don't know.

When asked what it would take, the response is: we need tests.

End of discussion. No plan in sight.

I tried to start the discussion. I already said I'm in favor of opening things up, but with measures in place. Voluntary wearing of masks is not a solution since asymptomatic people can spread it.

I say some things can be opened up now. When our state closed golf courses I was in favor of opening them up, with conditions. They were opened, with conditions. Now you have those businesses making money and people working while still being safe.

So let's have that conversion without the "why they want Po5 to die" bullshit.

Leaving out the outside fringe of lunatics, morons, and people who don't argue in good faith, everybody agrees that opening up will require safety measures.

The same measures applied at the grocery store, liquor store, pot dispensaries and other "essential businesses" can be applied just about everywhere. Still, when ever this is brought up, all we get is the usual hemming and hawing about virus spikes if we don't apply said safety measures.

We get it. Wear a mask in the store. Limit customers. Stay six feet apart.

Time to shit or get off the pot.

[DBTrek]

Democratic senators propose $2,000 monthly payments to most Americans

We're saved.

[PartyOf5]

Leaving out the outside fringe of lunatics, morons, and people who don't argue in good faith, everybody agrees that opening up will require safety measures.

Where has that been stated? What safety measures has "everybody" agreed to?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I have tried. Twice in the last 3 days alone I've talked about the conditions necessary to relax the shutdown and both times it resulted in zero discussion from anyone in a rush to open up the economy

https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315673
https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315963

I want to take these recommendations as seriously as I can, because I believe you are arguing in good faith.

1. Disease transmission is under control.

How? There isn't going to be a vaccine for some time, if ever, for the same reason that there isn't a vaccine for SARS and a vaccine of only limited efficacy for MERS.

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

How? With the transmission rate and huge amount of asymptomatic carriers, this is more or less impossible, and there is no plan to actually achieve this herculean task.

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

We already have all the tools we need for this.

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

We already know how to achieve this, and have all the tools we need.

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

We already know how to achieve this and have all the tools we need.

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

I don't know exactly what this means, but I am fairly certain it is not something that can be achieved through shelter-in-place, or social distancing, or more tests, or more PPE.

Here is the ugly truth. It doesn't matter how long we shelter in place, or how many tests we have. We are going to be in the exact same position as we are right now until we have herd immunity or a vaccine. As stated earlier, there is not a vaccine on the horizon, and there may not be one.

In the absence of a vaccine, the only way to keep transmission under control is to reduce the RO number to less than 1 and keep it there.
This involves social distancing, PPE, testing and tracing etc.
Rushing out to get a haircut, swarming all over the beaches or protesting about your constitutional rights will not achieve it.
This is going to involve a slow lifting of restrictions, monitoring and re-applying the restrictions if the rate of infection starts to rise again.
The more people prepared to accept this ''new normal'' the quicker the process will be.
Basically, it will need people to behave like adults and accept the advice of experts far more knowledgable about pandemics than the average forum shitposter.
I don't hold out much hope for those far more concerned about the falling approval rates of the Trump administration than the continuing high rates of infections and deaths.

Once again, you are naming the conditions required, but not explaining how we actually do this.

r0 less than 1 describes what we want. Testing and tracing describes what we want.

Other than that, sounds good. Time to start lifting restrictions. We seem to be on the same page.

For some reason, though, every time some one starts lifting restrictions, they get pilloried as anti-science mammon worshipers.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Leaving out the outside fringe of lunatics, morons, and people who don't argue in good faith, everybody agrees that opening up will require safety measures.

Where has that been stated? What safety measures has "everybody" agreed to?

A better question is: what serious person do you think is suggesting we completely ignore all safety precautions?