You know what I love? The State

[C-Mag]

No exponential growth before 1800.

Explain why.

[Montegriffo]

No exponential growth before 1800.

Explain why.

I think that is a bold statement that needs backing up before we go further.
I'd say there were plenty of things which happened before 1800 and speeded up growth and advancement before that date. I just provided a couple, wind and water power and glass. I'm sure others could provide plenty of other examples.

Where's StA when you need him? He's good at this sort of debate.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

My post was half tongue in cheek but I think we are saying the same thing.
The division of labour granted by the ability to settle in one place as a result of secure food storage is the beginning of civilization and therefore the state.
You have to cycle through the progressions of family units, tribes etc to get to nations and eventually empires and globalisation but I content it all started with the potter.

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

Order is the cause of our success as a species. The bureaucratic state is a manifestation of that order, and I love it.

[Montegriffo]

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

Order is the cause of our success as a species. The bureaucratic state is a manifestation of that order, and I love it.

I can't tell whether you are just trolling the muh roads crowd now or not.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

The bureaucratic state had not only been tried, but successfully implemented in enough of the world to make precision tools possible by the 18th century.

Order is the engine of our flourishing.

Explain how the technological revolution took off in a th time of chaos and upheaval?

This is the time of both the French and American Revolutions.

Time of chaos compared to what? The most ordered periods of statehood or the absolute chaos of statelessness?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Sorry if I've hijacked your thread Hanarchy. That's the risk you take though if you make something then leave it unattended.

It's still here though if you want to come back and take control of it again.

I don't mind at all. I was just away from the computer for a bit.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

Order is the cause of our success as a species. The bureaucratic state is a manifestation of that order, and I love it.

I can't tell whether you are just trolling the muh roads crowd now or not.

There is a lot of talk about how crappy the government and the state are, I am just carving out a counter position.

It is easy to take the benefits of order for granted when we are used to them. Then failures and breakdowns of order stick in the memory better.

[C-Mag]

I'll prove no exponential prior to 1800.

In 500 BC and 1800 AD, man could travel the same distance in a day. The distance his feet or horse could carry him.

Likewise, both could only communicate by written, predetermined signal or the sound of a voice.

Need I continue

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I'll prove no exponential prior to 1800.

In 500 BC and 1800 AD, man could travel the same distance in a day. The distance his feet or horse could carry him.

Likewise, both could only communicate by written, predetermined signal or the sound of a voice.

Need I continue

I agree with this interpretation. It is inconceivable that the technological revolution could have taken place before the development of the sophisticated state apparatus of the 18th century.

[C-Mag]

There is a lot of talk about how crappy the government and the state are, I am just carving out a counter position.

It is easy to take the benefits of order for granted when we are used to them. Then failures and breakdowns of order stick in the memory better.

I think it's a great discussion.

Can you show me how a 18th c beauracratic State was more orderly than Endo Japan, or classic Egypt or Rome