You know what I love? The State

[Manwithnoname]

Once you have stored grain, ie wealth, you have to have a state to come along and tax it to redistribute it for the common good.

Not really. The stored grain frees up people to specialise as all hands are not needed to hunt and gather. A couple of those specialists- warriors and priest create the state apparatus. Not that is a bad thing- farmers need priests to keep the gods happy so it rains when it should etc, and warriors to protect their farms from others that would rather take, but as in anything it can and will be abused.
The state is water - it can be used to grow food or you can heat it up and boil babies in it.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

You need to be in a relatively well ordered and predictable situation before you can attempt land cultivation on a large scale. The technology of agriculture was developed to facilitate ever growing groups of larger, safer, better ordered communities, not the other way around.

[Montegriffo]

Once you have stored grain, ie wealth, you have to have a state to come along and tax it to redistribute it for the common good.

Not really. The stored grain frees up people to specialise as all hands are not needed to hunt and gather. A couple of those specialists- warriors and priest create the state apparatus. Not that is a bad thing- farmers need priests to keep the gods happy so it rains when it should etc, and warriors to protect their farms from others that would rather take, but as in anything it can and will be abused.
The state is water - it can be used to grow food or you can heat it up and boil babies in it.

My post was half tongue in cheek but I think we are saying the same thing.
The division of labour granted by the ability to settle in one place as a result of secure food storage is the beginning of civilization and therefore the state.
You have to cycle through the progressions of family units, tribes etc to get to nations and eventually empires and globalisation but I content it all started with the potter.

[Montegriffo]

You need to be in a relatively well ordered and predictable situation before you can attempt land cultivation on a large scale. The technology of agriculture was developed to facilitate ever growing groups of larger, safer, better ordered communities, not the other way around.

Who says you need to start land cultivation on a large scale? You start with family units just like many other animal species and as the technology improves you can start joining up into tribes and so on. That first specialisation away from farming and hunting which allowed for large scale societies is the potter. Long before bean counters, priests and warriors.

[Manwithnoname]

Once you have stored grain, ie wealth, you have to have a state to come along and tax it to redistribute it for the common good.

Not really. The stored grain frees up people to specialise as all hands are not needed to hunt and gather. A couple of those specialists- warriors and priest create the state apparatus. Not that is a bad thing- farmers need priests to keep the gods happy so it rains when it should etc, and warriors to protect their farms from others that would rather take, but as in anything it can and will be abused.
The state is water - it can be used to grow food or you can heat it up and boil babies in it.

My post was half tongue in cheek but I think we are saying the same thing.
The division of labour granted by the ability to settle in one place as a result of secure food storage is the beginning of civilization and therefore the state.
You have to cycle through the progressions of family units, tribes etc to get to nations and eventually empires and globalisation but I content it all started with the potter.

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

[Montegriffo]

Not really. The stored grain frees up people to specialise as all hands are not needed to hunt and gather. A couple of those specialists- warriors and priest create the state apparatus. Not that is a bad thing- farmers need priests to keep the gods happy so it rains when it should etc, and warriors to protect their farms from others that would rather take, but as in anything it can and will be abused.
The state is water - it can be used to grow food or you can heat it up and boil babies in it.

My post was half tongue in cheek but I think we are saying the same thing.
The division of labour granted by the ability to settle in one place as a result of secure food storage is the beginning of civilization and therefore the state.
You have to cycle through the progressions of family units, tribes etc to get to nations and eventually empires and globalisation but I content it all started with the potter.

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

[Manwithnoname]

My post was half tongue in cheek but I think we are saying the same thing.
The division of labour granted by the ability to settle in one place as a result of secure food storage is the beginning of civilization and therefore the state.
You have to cycle through the progressions of family units, tribes etc to get to nations and eventually empires and globalisation but I content it all started with the potter.

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

Yep. Settling down and growing crops was almost as big a game changer for humanity as fire control was. Dogs come in at number 3 as they allowed us to sleep all night and thus could work / hunt all day rather than merely eat and sleep like dogs and cats do. With fire it also meant we could sit around before bed talking shit and developing language. But I digress.

But yes settled farming changed everything, and made almost everything thing else possible.

[pineapplemike]

holy shit guys this isn't the agriculture thread, stay on topic people

[Montegriffo]

holy shit guys this isn't the agriculture thread, stay on topic people

Pah, artists. What did they ever do to advance civilisation? You can't eat art.

[Montegriffo]

Sure. I didn’t mention the artisans, merchants, artists, explorers or scribes etc because as useful as they all were in their own way, it was the warrior and priest caste that began taxing and regimenting society.

But I’ll give you that the potter came first - although more than likely for a long long time it was the farmer that was doing that as they tried to figure out what to do with the surplus they had.

I think what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that the state is a result of our success as a species rather than the cause of it as Hanarchy is offering up for discussion.
Warriors, bean counters and priests don't like to admit it but it is the humble farmer who made the state possible.

Yep. Settling down and growing crops was almost as big a game changer for humanity as fire control was. Dogs come in at number 3 as they allowed us to sleep all night and thus could work / hunt all day rather than merely eat and sleep like dogs and cats do. With fire it also meant we could sit around before bed talking shit and developing language. But I digress.

But yes settled farming changed everything, and made almost everything thing else possible.

Dogs were also bred for meat in very early civilisations. Possibly even before they were domesticated for home protection.
According to QI, the very earliest animals that they've found archeological evidence of being farmed for meat is snails.