Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[Montegriffo]

68% do not support a second referendum.

68% do not support revoking the application to leave the EU.

I never said they did.

I said 68% don't want a no-deal Brexit.

Since when did you start straw-manning Bjorn?

Two thirds would prefer the alternatives even in your poll conducted for the pro-Brexit Telegraph.

That means that there is no majority for crashing out in either Parliament or the public as I originally stated.

To me it seems you keep delegitimizing the Brexit referendum result. I read your point about 68% as an example of that. That half of the people would rather a negotiated exit, doesn't mean they will refuse the idea of No deal. Having a preference for one thing, doesn't mean one wouldn't accept the alternative.

The vote was for Leave. Both no deal or deal is leave. You're getting the people's will. It is irrelevant even if

That's not entirely true though. May's deal only really involves leaving the political union but staying in the single market (or economic union). Why else do you think Rees Mogg and his ERG were so opposed to it?
A vote for the deal is in effect a vote to remain in the single market but to no longer have any control over it.
I would vote for the deal if I thought it was the only way to remove the danger of crashing out without a deal but it is clearly worse than the deal we currently have.
Some of the more optimistic pundits are hoping that this is Boris's plan. Prove to everybody that no-deal is a real possibility and the only way to avoid it is to approve a tweaked Chequers Agreement (May's deal) with his name on it.
Boris has said all along that he would prefer a deal unlike Farage and Rees Mogg and he did vote for the deal in Parliament 2 out of 3 times.
I'm not so optimistic and I disapprove of his abuse of prorogation in order to subvert Parliament.

[Montegriffo]

What stipulations were put into the BREXIT Vote ?
I thought the vote was just for a BREXIT.

It wasn't strictly a vote. It was advisory and intended to inform Parliament on how the public felt about leaving the EU.
All it really proved is that the country was split down the middle.
It had no power to enforce a Brexit and no clear mandate.
No deal was not on the ballot and bypassing Parliament in order to achieve it is fuckery on a grand scale.
It's what you would call a deep state coup attempt if it was happening over there.

So, there was language in the vote that specifically stated that if you vote for BREXIT, it will be a negotiated exit from the EU.

Is that your case.

Missed this one earlier.

Nope.

That was the platform everybody on the leave side campaigned from though. Even Farage and Rees Mogg.
Norway style deal was their favourite talking point.
Switzerland and Canada were also offered as examples of the type of deal we could expect.
Gove said we could expect a deal the day after we left and that it would be easy to negotiate.
No one campaigned for a no-deal Brexit.
Nobody mentioned a 50 million Euro divorce bill.
Boris plastered lies on the side of a bus.
Corbyn went into hiding and refused to commit to campaigning for remain despite the fact he claimed that was his position even though he has been a fierce critic of the EU for most of his shitty career. Many northern scum Labour voters took this as a cue to vote to leave as a giant fuck you to Cameron and his uncaring Tory party.

The only party to remain consistent and come out of this with any honour were the Lib' Dem's and as a result they will probably get my vote next time around (and a lot of other voter's too).

[C-Mag]

It wasn't strictly a vote. It was advisory and intended to inform Parliament on how the public felt about leaving the EU.
All it really proved is that the country was split down the middle.
It had no power to enforce a Brexit and no clear mandate.
No deal was not on the ballot and bypassing Parliament in order to achieve it is fuckery on a grand scale.
It's what you would call a deep state coup attempt if it was happening over there.

So, there was language in the vote that specifically stated that if you vote for BREXIT, it will be a negotiated exit from the EU.

Is that your case.

Missed this one earlier.

Nope.

OK.
I understand there was not a NO DEAL BREXIT in the referendum. But there also was not a BREXIT by soft exit with negotiations in the referendum either.

Which means the people left it up to the government.
Theresa May tried to make a deal the was a BREXIT IN NAME ONLY, she got fired.

Boris logically should conclude that a route different than Mays is mandated.

[Montegriffo]

OK.
I understand there was not a NO DEAL BREXIT in the referendum. But there also was not a BREXIT by soft exit with negotiations in the referendum either.

Which means the people left it up to the government.
Theresa May tried to make a deal the was a BREXIT IN NAME ONLY, she got fired.

Boris logically should conclude that a route different than Mays is mandated.

There was no ''no-deal'' option on the ballot, it was only an advisory referendum after all.
There was plenty of ''great new deal'' campaigning from the leave side though. Did you watch the Farage compilation I posted earlier?
There is no mandate for crashing out.
What Boris has logically concluded is that he will be out on his ear if he fails to secure Brexit by October 31st.
This is why he is so desperate that he is prepared to subvert Parliament and leave with the ''dire consequences'' of a no-deal Brexit (his government report's words not mine).
We are just one quarter's negative growth away from a recession as it is.
The last quarter was 0.5% negative growth and the government's own study predicted a 4% reduction in GDP would be the result of a no-deal Brexit.
Shit is getting real and it's getting real really fast.

[StCapps]

OK.
I understand there was not a NO DEAL BREXIT in the referendum. But there also was not a BREXIT by soft exit with negotiations in the referendum either.

Which means the people left it up to the government.
Theresa May tried to make a deal the was a BREXIT IN NAME ONLY, she got fired.

Boris logically should conclude that a route different than Mays is mandated.

There was no ''no-deal'' option on the ballot, it was only an advisory referendum after all.
There was plenty of ''great new deal'' campaigning from the leave side though. Did you watch the Farage compilation I posted earlier?
There is no mandate for crashing out.
What Boris has logically concluded is that he will be out on his ear if he fails to secure Brexit by October 31st.
This is why he is so desperate that he is prepared to subvert Parliament and leave with the ''dire consequences'' of a no-deal Brexit (his government report's words not mine).
We are just one quarter's negative growth away from a recession as it is.
The last quarter was 0.5% negative growth and the government's own study predicted a 4% reduction in GDP would be the result of a no-deal Brexit.
Shit is getting real and it's getting real really fast.

There is no mandate for staying. Just because they didn't vote on no-deal brexit doesn't mean they wouldn't vote for it over remain if there is no good alternative. Just because you would prefer Britain cave and accept a shitty deal before you leave instead of leaving first and getting a better deal after you leave, doesn't mean your opinion is the will of the people.

[C-Mag]

There was no ''no-deal'' option on the ballot, it was only an advisory referendum after all.

So you're position is that if Boris doesn't do what Theresa May was fired for, he's wrong.


Since your argument relies on the original intent of the referendum, we should be specific on what the question was. Here it is....

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
The options will read:

_Remain a member of the European Union

_Leave the European Union

The question posed to voters said nothing about a deal or no deal. Why do you assume the voters wanted a deal?


https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/brexit- ... aming.html

[C-Mag]

There is no mandate for staying. Just because they didn't vote on no-deal brexit doesn't mean they wouldn't vote for it over remain if there is no good alternative. Just because you would prefer Britain cave and accept a shitty deal before you leave instead of leaving first and getting a better deal after you leave, doesn't mean your opinion is the will of the people.

This shit about not accepting the result of elections is hilarious. #NotmyBrexit

This is straight up thinking of central planning progs, everything has to be controlled, if we lose, we don't lose, stay with the plan, trust the plan

[StCapps]

There is no mandate for staying. Just because they didn't vote on no-deal brexit doesn't mean they wouldn't vote for it over remain if there is no good alternative. Just because you would prefer Britain cave and accept a shitty deal before you leave instead of leaving first and getting a better deal after you leave, doesn't mean your opinion is the will of the people.

This shit about not accepting the result of elections is hilarious. #NotmyBrexit

This is straight up thinking of central planning progs, everything has to be controlled, if we lose, we don't lose, stay with the plan, trust the plan

Montegriffo assumes that because the Brexit campaign claimed they could get a deal done prior to exiting, he assumes that this exact pitch is what won them the referendum and had they campaigned on hard brexit, they would have lost.

[Hastur]

Win at all costs and fuck the truth.
Your version of democracy sucks.

Just a reminder,

NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL BREXIT

No one voted for a negotiated exit agreement either. None of those options were on the ballot.

[StCapps]

Win at all costs and fuck the truth.
Your version of democracy sucks.

Just a reminder,

NO ONE VOTED FOR A NO DEAL BREXIT

No one voted for a negotiated exit agreement either. None of those options were on the ballot.

Should the UK stay or should the UK go, that was the question. They voted go, "go" encompasses a wide range of possibilities, but staying isn't one of them. Most want to leave, whether with a deal, or without one, remain is in the minority.

Most of the people who only wanted to leave if there was a deal, and wouldn't support a no deal brexit, they voted to remain, out of fear of a no deal brexit. The remain side told voters ad nauseum that leaving would result in a no deal brexit, in order to scare people out of voting to leave, but that didn't scare enough voters off, because no deal brexit isn't as unpopular as Monte would like us to believe.

Voters on all sides were uninformed, voters being uninformed is not grounds for a do over, and even if it was, that would just mean never ending referendum do overs, because the voters are always going to be uninformed.