Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[TheReal_ND]

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[kybkh]

You're doing gods work bro.

[ssu]

Thanks nuke!

I was thinking of respecting Otern and putting this thread up, but you did it already. Nice to see that there's interest on us people on the sinking catastrophy called Europe. And thanks for the work above collecting the old stuff!

Well, let's give a sitrep on what is happening just now:

- Italy is going to the polls today to vote on a referendum. As the present Italian administration and Prime Minister Matteo Renzi made it into a faceoff with the "surging populists", if he loses, the end result may be that Itexit happens. Note that this is the first Euro-country.

- Austrians were also voting Sunday in a tight presidential contest between the far-right Norbert Hofer and center-left candidate Alexander Van der Bellen. If Mr. Hofer comes out on top, he would be the first right-wing populist head of state in Europe since World War II.

- French President, the socialist Hollande, has thrown in the towel and won't seek another term. Those French presidential elections... 23rd April.

- Merkel is going seek another term. German elections coming in August-October 2017.

So, in the end of 2017 Europe might look very, very different.

Matteo Renzi, the Italian Prime Minister:

[Otern]

I'm not done ranting on the EU yet.

[ssu]

Neither am I, otern.

I think now the EU is having it's "Deer in the headlights" moment. Just holding it's breathe without any idea what to do...

The annoying thing is that basically what EU ought to be is what it is: a confederation. A goddam de facto confederation. Not a federation. Starting from that, upholding the rights of the member states, understanding that the people themselves are loyal to their countries, not to a higher level beyond that, would be the key here for success in my view. Not trying to make the United States. This should be a view that the heads in Brussell's would have to say now.



While as federalism is very different:


But no... now some can make interesting remarks, but in general these idiots as a group are so stupid they cannot fathom anything else but just to insist on an utterly failed federation Project and simply reject all critique as evil racist nationalism and xenophobia. And they are so stupid that even the term 'Confederacy' couldn't be used, because these people start to think about the US Civil War participant and slavery.

[Speaker to Animals]

Confederation should always be preferred over federation when distinct cultures are involved. Europe would do well under such an aegis. But federalism allows one group or faction to impose policy and values on all the others. That kind of power proves too attractive, and confederations tend to be avoided or later replaced by federations.

Here in America, kids are taught the earlier American confederation didn't work and just had to be replaced in a new constitutional convention by a federation. Yet I have not read good reasons why it didn't work, especially considering the monster the federal government quickly became, and the culture wars it engenders.

Europens would do well to avoid a similar fate. Great power for its own sake makes poor justification for federalism, in my opinion, unless you plan to be one of the rats scurrying through the halls of Washington or Brussels.

[Montegriffo]

"ssu" the sinking catastrophy called Europe.

I prefer to think of it as a guiding beacon of light.

[Ex-California]

Confederation should always be preferred over federation when distinct cultures are involved. Europe would do well under such an aegis. But federalism allows one group or faction to impose policy and values on all the others. That kind of power proves too attractive, and confederations tend to be avoided or later replaced by federations.

Here in America, kids are taught the earlier American confederation didn't work and just had to be replaced in a new constitutional convention by a federation. Yet I have not read good reasons why it didn't work, especially considering the monster the federal government quickly became, and the culture wars it engenders.

Europens would do well to avoid a similar fate. Great power for its own sake makes poor justification for federalism, in my opinion, unless you plan to be one of the rats scurrying through the halls of Washington or Brussels.

All good reasons in my eyes

Weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation

Following is a list of the weaknesses of the Articles of Confederation that would quickly lead to problems which the founding fathers realized would not be fixable under the current form of government. These included the following:

Each state only had one vote in Congress, regardless of size.
Congress did not have the power to tax.
Congress did not have the power to regulate foreign and interstate commerce.
There was no executive branch to enforce any acts passed by Congress.
There was no national court system.
Amendments to the Articles of Confederation required a unanimous vote.
Laws required a 9/13 majority to pass in Congress.
Under the Articles of Confederation, each state was concerned with preserving their own sovereignty and power. This led to frequent arguments between the states. In addition, the states would not willingly give money to financially support the national government.

The national government was powerless to enforce any acts that Congress passed. Further, some states began to make agreements with foreign governments. Almost every state had its own military. Each printed its own money. This along with issues with trade meant that there was no stable economy.

Without the federal government, we'd be a loose confederation of states that would have never expanded to today's size and today's power. I guess if you wish Georgia always stayed its own country, struggling along like a South American or Caribbean republic I guess go for it

[ssu]

Confederation should always be preferred over federation when distinct cultures are involved. Europe would do well under such an aegis. But federalism allows one group or faction to impose policy and values on all the others. That kind of power proves too attractive, and confederations tend to be avoided or later replaced by federations.

Here in America, kids are taught the earlier American confederation didn't work and just had to be replaced in a new constitutional convention by a federation. Yet I have not read good reasons why it didn't work, especially considering the monster the federal government quickly became, and the culture wars it engenders.

Europens would do well to avoid a similar fate. Great power for its own sake makes poor justification for federalism, in my opinion, unless you plan to be one of the rats scurrying through the halls of Washington or Brussels.

Well said,

The people are really different. And If you want to build a real European Federation, it's possible but it's goddam ugly and will take many decades, even Centuries with lot of blood shed in the process. You need people like Napoleon or Bismarck, nothing less will do. Even to create nation-states like France or Germany were rather crude things in the end.

In my view the biggest threat to the European Union are exactly the federalists, these idiots who hallucinate that some bureaucrats in Brussell's can form a new United States of Europe with penstrokes and legal technicalities. They are the real culprits of the demise of the European Union, if the union comes dissolves.

[Montegriffo]

In my view the biggest threat to the European Union are exactly the federalists, these idiots who hallucinate that some bureaucrats in Brussell's can form a new United States of Europe with penstrokes and legal technicalities. They are the real culprits of the demise of the European Union, if the union comes dissolves.

I agree with you there, but possibly not on the need for a Union in the first place. Not sure of your position.
Are you with Otern on the desire to burn it all down?