Brexit

[Speaker to Animals]

Self-determination is its own good.

Brussels or Berlin, defeat in war or voluntarily surrendering your sovereignty: it's the same in the end.

[Montegriffo]

Self-determination is its own good.

Brussels or Berlin, defeat in war or voluntarily surrendering your sovereignty: it's the same in the end.

Surrendering sovereignty is a Brexiteers myth.
Parliamentary supremacy was never given up.
This is why we are not in the Euro zone or the Schengen area.
Give me one example of us losing sovereignty.

[Ex-California]

I've been doing that since this thread started.

Immigration-
Immigration will not decrease as a result of Brexit. We have our lowest unemployment rates in decades. Industries such as agriculture and healthcare rely on immigration to fill the vacancies. The first Brexit secretary Dave Davis said as much only weeks after the vote. He stated that immigration from Europe would not decrease for years as it was essential to the economy.

Trade
''Britain can make its own trade deals once we leave and they will be to our advantage''
False, Britain is in a much better position with reference to international trade as a part of the worlds largest trading block. New trade deals can take years to agree on and uncertainty in the meantime has a massive detrimental effect on investment. This is reflected in the crash in the value of the pound since the vote.

Return of sovereignty
False, Brexiteer myth. Sovereignty was never lost as demonstrated by our refusal to join the Euro zone or be a part of the Schengen agreement. Both EU policies which we rejected through Parliamentary supremacy.

Return to controlling our own borders.
False, we never lost control of our borders as demonstrated by the tiny number of refugees which make it into the country. Also demonstrated by the Sangatte refugee camp where those unable to get to the UK spent months trying and failing until it was shut down by the authorities.

Britain will be better off economically after we leave.
False. The government reports on the effects of leaving were so damning that they tried to suppress their release. Especially leaving without a deal.

£350 million per week to spend on the NHS.
Outright lie on the side of a bus. The figure didn't take into account the rebate we receive from the EU amounting to around £70 million a week or the money we receive from the EU for infrastructure investment, agricultural subsidies and investment in deprived areas, nor were there any guarantees that the money would be spent on the NHS. Nor did it represent the economic benefits which we gain as an EU member which outnumbers the amount we pay into the EU.

You're so worried about "trade deals" when in the best case the government is not involved in any deal at all. Companies make contracts with each other and trade goes along swimmingly. We don't need "trading blocks" and governments to have functioning trade

So you oppose Trump's trade policies then?
Like it or not government are balls deep in trade deals and that is the world we live in.

I support when Trump pulls out of deals, I do not support the subsidy/tariff nonsense he is pulling.

Knowing that governments are balls deep in trade deals is one thing, accepting it, working with it, and cheerleading it is another.

[Montegriffo]

Cheerleading government involvement in trade deals is a straw man.
Accepting the reality of it and wishing to stay within a massive trade block which negotiates trade deals to our benefit is pragmatic not idealistic.

[Ex-California]

And that's another example of how you're losing your self-determination.

Pragmatism is great, but without some idealism we'll all eventually be in chains

[Montegriffo]

My arguments are FOR remaining as outlined in the list of benefits I produced for you.
The arguments against leaving revolve around losing those benefits.

Pro-Brexit arguments seem to be centered around opposing the EU and its policies with very little said about any benefits of leaving.
Probably because they are few and far between them.

Opposition to the EU and its policies are enough.

Ok, list the EU policies which are so heinous that it is worth losing all the benefits of membership to avoid.

Still waiting...

[Fife]

VIDEO at link:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/political-t ... subtitled/

Hoppe on Hangar subtitled: A good soul subtitled Hoppe´s lines on the Austrian tv show Hangar


Lokal Denken, Lokal Handeln.

[Montegriffo]

Would have been nice to hear what the other panelists had to say without Hoppe constantly talking over them.

[Speaker to Animals]

The other panelists were fortunate to hear what he had to say before they were frog-marched into the choppers.

[Fife]

Our Dear Mastermind and Leader Putin didn't have all his eggs in the Mueller basket, at least. Bet that.