Coronavirus thread

[DBTrek]

I'm not sure who you think is disagreeing with what you are saying here. No one is suggesting that anyone but the most at risk should remain in lockdown until a vaccine or cure is found. The point of the lockdown is to reduce the rate of infection to a ''safe'' level.

Everyone saying the lockdown must remain until we can do 100% contact tracing and/or have a vaccine is disagreeing.

As for setting an end date, however, you can't just pick some arbitrary timespan for ending the lockdown. It has to be dependent on factors such as the rate of infection, ICU capacity, availability of PPE and ability to test and contract trace etc.

This is where you're naive. Every lockdown comes with an expiration date, known as "when people stop complying". If you believe humans are going to wait for a bunch talking heads to give the 'ok' before they emerge from lockdown you've much to learn about the human condition.

Whether you like it or not the world has changed and you are going to have to get used to the ''new normal'' and if that means compromising on a few ''freedoms'' like being made to wear a mask in certain high-risk situations then that's what you are going to have to do.
You can rail all you like about the constitution but your right to do what you want ends at the point where you endanger others.

And this is where you go completely off the rails with your Euro-trade-freedom-for-security talk. No, we don't have to sacrifice any freedoms. Businesses can set their mask/gloves requirements as they see fit, and people are free to frequent hose businesses or not. See how easy that is? Safety enforced, freedom maintained. As far as freedom ending when you endanger others - I notice that's not the case at all. How many single mothers endanger the financial security of others by having yet another child they can't provide for? Yet we don't jail them. How many obese people in the UK endanger the solvency of the NHS with their self-inflicted health issues? Yet I see no fatty jails.

So it seems people are allowed to behave in ways that endanger others all the time. You simply prefer to pick and choose which people and behaviors fall under the umbrella of "we must compromise freedom because others are endangered".

[The Conservative]

It was "rare" before coronavirus. Three kids just died from it NYC this weekend and they have something like 40 more kids nationally in the ICU for it right now. Watch the video before you comment on it.

40 kids... Are you fucking hearing yourself?

There are millions of kids nation wide which had it and survived.

NY is a special case because of what it is. It's a democrat safe house, and it shows in the results.

You have gone past retard and straight to potato.

That actually makes it more concerning. The fact that there are a number of unusual cases clustered in an area indicates a new mutation of the virus.

If this were something different about those kids, then there would be isolated cases everywhere.

Or that the kids share the same kind of issue that caused their deaths.

Millions of kids world wide have had this statistically and such a minute about have had died from it since day one...

I highly doubt it's mutated.

[Speaker to Animals]

"Possible link", "Rare", " no deaths." Cry some more.

It was "rare" before coronavirus. Three kids just died from it NYC this weekend and they have something like 40 more kids nationally in the ICU for it right now. Watch the video before you comment on it.

40 put of how many? And how long has Covid been in US?

If this was month 1 or 2, I could see the concern. But this is month 6 officially (and probably more like 8 or 9 unofficially).


If Covid is as bad as you claim, where are the millions of dead? We should have seen that by now.


Covid is nasty - but it simply does not warrant overturning society.

Well, it looks like we are going to cross the one hundred thousand fatality mark a long ways short of even 5% of the population being infected. So estimating upwards to be conservative and assuming 100k at 5% of the population being infected, then we will cross a million dead in the United States when we see about 50%of the population infected. Really, I would guess it's probably closer 30% infected when we cross a million, but it's hard to know for sure because our government refuses to test the American population to find out exactly what is happening.

Problem there being.. it's not just the million people who died that wrecks your economy. Who pays for millions of Americans sitting in an ICU ward for two months? What happens when you lose so many of your healthcare workers that you can't even treat everybody? How many more people "recover" permanently disabled from brain damage (long term ventilator use), lung damage, liver and kidney damage, and so on? It seems pretty fucking high right now. Who is going to pay SSD on the millions of Amrericans who's bodies are completely fucked for the rest of their lives?

More importantly: what exactly do you think would happen if you saw everybody getting sick at once and you blast through surge capacity? I can tell you the answer to that quite definitively.. you will realize the full potential of the disease and see its natural 12-15% mortality rate. That is what happened in Lombardy and Wuhan when they blasted through surge capacity and those places have governments far more effective at fighting covid than we do.

Our economy has FAR more to lose with this batshit plan to reopen without testing and contact tracing. Ignoring that risk is delusional AF.

[Xenophon]

It was "rare" before coronavirus. Three kids just died from it NYC this weekend and they have something like 40 more kids nationally in the ICU for it right now. Watch the video before you comment on it.

40 put of how many? And how long has Covid been in US?

If this was month 1 or 2, I could see the concern. But this is month 6 officially (and probably more like 8 or 9 unofficially).


If Covid is as bad as you claim, where are the millions of dead? We should have seen that by now.


Covid is nasty - but it simply does not warrant overturning society.

Well, it looks like we are going to cross the one hundred thousand fatality mark a long ways short of even 5% of the population being infected. So estimating upwards to be conservative and assuming 100k at 5% of the population being infected, then we will cross a million dead in the United States when we see about 50%of the population infected. Really, I would guess it's probably closer 30% infected when we cross a million, but it's hard to know for sure because our government refuses to test the American population to find out exactly what is happening.

Problem there being.. it's not just the million people who died that wrecks your economy. Who pays for millions of Americans sitting in an ICU ward for two months? What happens when you lose so many of your healthcare workers that you can't even treat everybody? How many more people "recover" permanently disabled from brain damage (long term ventilator use), lung damage, liver and kidney damage, and so on? It seems pretty fucking high right now. Who is going to pay SSD on the millions of Amrericans who's bodies are completely fucked for the rest of their lives?

More importantly: what exactly do you think would happen if you saw everybody getting sick at once and you blast through surge capacity? I can tell you the answer to that quite definitively.. you will realize the full potential of the disease and see its natural 12-15% mortality rate. That is what happened in Lombardy and Wuhan when they blasted through surge capacity and those places have governments far more effective at fighting covid than we do.

Our economy has FAR more to lose with this batshit plan to reopen without testing and contact tracing. Ignoring that risk is delusional AF.

According to Cuomo, healthcare and other essential workers were highly underrepresented in their COVID tallies.

But whatevs.

[Speaker to Animals]

Any effective response to this pandemic is really a kind of math problem. The goal is to reduce R0 to 1.0 and lower. We know that we can achieve that with the most severe lockdowns we have implemented here (e.g. New York and California). So the problem of "reopening the economy" is really a problem of how you can achieve the same R0 reduction that you are losing by lifting social isolation orders either wholly or partially.

We also know that a widespread community testing with aggressive contact tracing has the same effect. We saw that in South Korea and Singapore. Maybe that doesn't really scale up that well with a larger country but it would have a significant impact on the R0.

If you wanted to reopen things like restaurants, for example, for sit-down service, then you can combine that with community testing/contact tracing and some basic cleaning protocols between customers using a table, as well as whatever measures are required in the kitchen, especially with dishes and whatnot.

The republican plan of "fuck it, just open everything up because the virus is just like the flu" is very likely going to backfire badly. This is the exact same shit the republicans did in 1918 and, I am telling you, they are going to pay a permanent cost if they cause that many deaths this time.

It's not even like this is some impossible task either. I don't understand why we can't have testing in this country when every other developed nation seems to be able to manage it.

And if all these people start dying because of this retarded as fuck "reopen shit" demand, you all are going to share in culpability for it. Every now and again, hard times come and that was your chance to behave nobly or like a total jackass. Unfortunately a lot of Americans are behaving like children.

The balance is not "how do we minimize profit loss"; the balance is "how do we create the same reductions in R0 by other means so we can loosen restrictions". When people say you put money first, that is what they mean, and for most of you that is not a wrong assessment. Fucking come up with ways to reduce R0 so that you actually can loosen restrictions. If all you do is look at the money, you are going to lose even more money from this down the road.

And none of you are even being honest with what you are arguing against. I am not saying lockdowns no matter what. I am saying you have a kind of budget for r0 reductions and, if you are going to take away a social distancing measure then you need to find a way to make up that reduction somewhere else. You can definitely do that with widespread community testing and good contact tracing. But you come at me like I am for filling in skate parks and I hate "freedom". Fucking grow up.

[pineapplemike]

freedom hater

[DBTrek]

Tanzania COVID-19 lab head suspended as president questions data

5 May 2020

Tanzania has suspended the head of its national health laboratory in charge of coronavirus testing, a day after President John Magufuli questioned the accuracy of the tests.

Magufuli, who has consistently downplayed the effect of the virus, said on Sunday he had secretly had animals, fruits and vehicle oil tested at the laboratory. A papaya, a quail and a goat had been found to be positive, according to the president.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/ ... 36872.html

We must wait for "science", we must wait for "testing", otherwise we're murdering grandma.
And the NYC governor forcing nursing homes to take COVID patients? He's a hero, not a grandma killer.

Spare us.

[Zlaxer]

It was "rare" before coronavirus. Three kids just died from it NYC this weekend and they have something like 40 more kids nationally in the ICU for it right now. Watch the video before you comment on it.

40 put of how many? And how long has Covid been in US?

If this was month 1 or 2, I could see the concern. But this is month 6 officially (and probably more like 8 or 9 unofficially).


If Covid is as bad as you claim, where are the millions of dead? We should have seen that by now.


Covid is nasty - but it simply does not warrant overturning society.

Well, it looks like we are going to cross the one hundred thousand fatality mark a long ways short of even 5% of the population being infected. So estimating upwards to be conservative and assuming 100k at 5% of the population being infected, then we will cross a million dead in the United States when we see about 50%of the population infected. Really, I would guess it's probably closer 30% infected when we cross a million, but it's hard to know for sure because our government refuses to test the American population to find out exactly what is happening.

Problem there being.. it's not just the million people who died that wrecks your economy. Who pays for millions of Americans sitting in an ICU ward for two months? What happens when you lose so many of your healthcare workers that you can't even treat everybody? How many more people "recover" permanently disabled from brain damage (long term ventilator use), lung damage, liver and kidney damage, and so on? It seems pretty fucking high right now. Who is going to pay SSD on the millions of Amrericans who's bodies are completely fucked for the rest of their lives?

More importantly: what exactly do you think would happen if you saw everybody getting sick at once and you blast through surge capacity? I can tell you the answer to that quite definitively.. you will realize the full potential of the disease and see its natural 12-15% mortality rate. That is what happened in Lombardy and Wuhan when they blasted through surge capacity and those places have governments far more effective at fighting covid than we do.

Our economy has FAR more to lose with this batshit plan to reopen without testing and contact tracing. Ignoring that risk is delusional AF.

Here is where your argument is weak - it assumes only 5% of total population is positive - which is based off actual tests - but you only get the test if you have symptoms. The data you are relying on is skewed.

[Montegriffo]

Everyone saying the lockdown must remain until we can do 100% contact tracing and/or have a vaccine is disagreeing.

Which orifice did you pull ''100%'' from? Sounds like a strawman to me

This is where you're naive. Every lockdown comes with an expiration date, known as "when people stop complying". If you believe humans are going to wait for a bunch talking heads to give the 'ok' before they emerge from lockdown you've much to learn about the human condition.

...and each lockdown is only as effective as the compliance to it. You want the lockdown to go on indefinitely then carry on arguing against it and finding excuses not to comply.

And this is where you go completely off the rails with your Euro-trade-freedom-for-security talk. No, we don't have to sacrifice any freedoms. Businesses can set their mask/gloves requirements as they see fit, and people are free to frequent hose businesses or not. See how easy that is? Safety enforced, freedom maintained.

...and what, bouncers on the doors to keep non-compliers out? How does that sit with your sense of freedom? Call the cops when some dick refuses to comply with rules about masks on public transport or when doing a bit of shoe shopping?
You've already had one poor guy shot dead for telling a woman to wear a mask. This is why places like Sweden can get away with voluntary compliance while other places need to make laws.

As far as freedom ending when you endanger others - I notice that's not the case at all. How many single mothers endanger the financial security of others by having yet another child they can't provide for? Yet we don't jail them. How many obese people in the UK endanger the solvency of the NHS with their self-inflicted health issues? Yet I see no fatty jails.

So it seems people are allowed to behave in ways that endanger others all the time. You simply prefer to pick and choose which people and behaviors fall under the umbrella of "we must compromise freedom because others are endangered".

So what about the freedom to refuse to wear a crash helmet or a seatbelt or restrict your driving speed? Those are freedoms compromised for endangering the financial solvency of the NHS.
How about the freedom to have as many children as you want or eat what you want. How about smokers or heavy drinkers? You think their health insurance should be the same as everyone else 'cos freedom?

Seems like the argument for freedom is wheeled out when it suits and ignored when it doesn't. Picking and choosing which freedoms matter and which freedoms don't.
No freedom is quite as black and white as you want to think it is.

[DBTrek]

...and each lockdown is only as effective as the compliance to it. You want the lockdown to go on indefinitely then carry on arguing against it and finding excuses not to comply.

Genius, Monte. So a lockdown people aren't complying with will go on forever... except people aren't complying with it.... so it's actually already over.
Derp.

...and what, bouncers on the doors to keep non-compliers out? How does that sit with your sense of freedom? Call the cops when some dick refuses to comply with rules about masks on public transport or when doing a bit of shoe shopping?
You've already had one poor guy shot dead for telling a woman to wear a mask. This is why places like Sweden can get away with voluntary compliance while other places need to make laws.

Are you really retreating to "How could businesses possibly ensure compliance with their policies?!?!"
The same way they do it now.
Same way they've done it your whole life.
What a ridiculous objection.

So what about the freedom to refuse to wear a crash helmet or a seatbelt or restrict your driving speed? Those are freedoms compromised for endangering the financial solvency of the NHS.
How about the freedom to have as many children as you want or eat what you want. How about smokers or heavy drinkers? You think their health insurance should be the same as everyone else 'cos freedom?

Seems like the argument for freedom is wheeled out when it suits and ignored when it doesn't. Picking and choosing which freedoms matter and which freedoms don't.
No freedom is quite as black and white as you want to think it is.

None of that made any kind of sense. Drinkers and smokers should obviously pay more, for being higher risk due to voluntary behavior. Under a private, market system, they pay more in insurance for their vices, and pay more at hospitals due to requiring more frequent services. Freedom style, it works.

It's only when medicine is socialized that the "freedoms" of fatties, smokers, and alcoholics start affecting others. When your neighbor gets to subsidize the enormous health costs of your habits, you've effectively harmed them with your "freedom". But you Brits don't care about your fat, unhealthy, alcoholic populace and the damage they inflict on society with their "freedoms". Nope. You're too busy hand-wringing over some redneck in Appalachia not wearing a mask when he picks up bait at a country gas station. The horror, the horror. Freedom must be sacrificed for safety!

Clown.