You know what I love? The State

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

There is a lot of talk about how crappy the government and the state are, I am just carving out a counter position.

It is easy to take the benefits of order for granted when we are used to them. Then failures and breakdowns of order stick in the memory better.

I think it's a great discussion.

Can you show me how a 20th c beauracratic State was more orderly than Endo Japan, or classic Egypt or Rome

I don't think I can quantify more or less ordered with that much granularity, but those are all fantastic examples of very successful bureaucratic apparatus through out history. All times when various technologies developed, if with somewhat less rapidity than 20c technological development.

[Montegriffo]

I'll prove no exponential prior to 1800.

In 500 BC and 1800 AD, man could travel the same distance in a day. The distance his feet or horse could carry him.

Likewise, both could only communicate by written, predetermined signal or the sound of a voice.

Need I continue

Nonsense, advances in boatbuilding meant you could travel much faster and much further in 1800 than in 500 BC.

[C-Mag]

I'll prove no exponential prior to 1800.

In 500 BC and 1800 AD, man could travel the same distance in a day. The distance his feet or horse could carry him.

Likewise, both could only communicate by written, predetermined signal or the sound of a voice.

Need I continue

Nonsense, advances in boatbuilding meant you could travel much faster and much further in 1800 than in 500 BC.

But it was still just evolutionary tech. Still under the power of sail or oar.

History proves that you can conceive of revolutionary changes, such as Davincis ideas, but without precision machining you can't achieve it

[Montegriffo]

Order is the cause of our success as a species. The bureaucratic state is a manifestation of that order, and I love it.

I can't tell whether you are just trolling the muh roads crowd now or not.

There is a lot of talk about how crappy the government and the state are, I am just carving out a counter position.

It is easy to take the benefits of order for granted when we are used to them. Then failures and breakdowns of order stick in the memory better.

I tend to agree but you're going to get a lot of disagreement around here. I'll go and fetch the popcorn...

[C-Mag]

There is a lot of talk about how crappy the government and the state are, I am just carving out a counter position.

It is easy to take the benefits of order for granted when we are used to them. Then failures and breakdowns of order stick in the memory better.

I think it's a great discussion.

Can you show me how a 20th c beauracratic State was more orderly than Endo Japan, or classic Egypt or Rome

I don't think I can quantify more or less ordered with that much granularity, but those are all fantastic examples of very successful bureaucratic apparatus through out history. All times when various technologies developed, if with somewhat less rapidity than 20c technological development.

It's not somewhat less, it's hockey stick growth once you have precision machining

[Montegriffo]

I'll prove no exponential prior to 1800.

In 500 BC and 1800 AD, man could travel the same distance in a day. The distance his feet or horse could carry him.

Likewise, both could only communicate by written, predetermined signal or the sound of a voice.

Need I continue

Nonsense, advances in boatbuilding meant you could travel much faster and much further in 1800 than in 500 BC.

But it was still just evolutionary tech. Still under the power of sail or oar.

History proves that you can conceive of revolutionary changes, such as Davincis ideas, but without precision machining you can't achieve it

Sorry Carlus but you're going to have to put a bit more effort into your argument than simply stating ''history proves'' to convince me. Precision machining was a big step, I don't disagree, but to say there was no exponential advancement before it is a rather blunt statement that needs expanding on.

[C-Mag]

From 1800 to 2000 man goes from communicating face to face to telegraph, to radio, to phone to television, to computer, to global and extraterrestrial communication.

Travel same, food production and storage, same.

All because of precision machining

[C-Mag]

Nonsense, advances in boatbuilding meant you could travel much faster and much further in 1800 than in 500 BC.

But it was still just evolutionary tech. Still under the power of sail or oar.

History proves that you can conceive of revolutionary changes, such as Davincis ideas, but without precision machining you can't achieve it

Sorry Carlus but you're going to have to put a bit more effort into your argument than simply stating ''history proves'' to convince me. Precision machining was a big step, I don't disagree, but to say there was no exponential advancement before it is a rather blunt statement that needs expanding on.

I gotta get some work done. I'll catch ya a little later brother.

Take care and hug that clay pot full of grain.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

You need to be in a relatively well ordered and predictable situation before you can attempt land cultivation on a large scale. The technology of agriculture was developed to facilitate ever growing groups of larger, safer, better ordered communities, not the other way around.

Who says you need to start land cultivation on a large scale? You start with family units just like many other animal species and as the technology improves you can start joining up into tribes and so on. That first specialisation away from farming and hunting which allowed for large scale societies is the potter. Long before bean counters, priests and warriors.

There is a reason that we spent most of our time on the planet as nomads traveling about and populating every corner. Having to stick close enough to a particular piece of land to cultivate it, no matter how large or small, is a huge opportunity cost. It makes you much more vulnerable. You need to have a population large enough and well ordered enough to defend it before you can even start.
You have to already have a large enough population that you can't get enough nutrients without specialized food production. Agriculture before that point is not sophisticated enough to produce an excess that would necessitate much storage.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I think it's a great discussion.

Can you show me how a 20th c beauracratic State was more orderly than Endo Japan, or classic Egypt or Rome

I don't think I can quantify more or less ordered with that much granularity, but those are all fantastic examples of very successful bureaucratic apparatus through out history. All times when various technologies developed, if with somewhat less rapidity than 20c technological development.

It's not somewhat less, it's hockey stick growth once you have precision machining

I am not arguing against that. "Somewhat less rapidity" was a facetious turn of phrase.

The 18th century was a technological tipping point, no doubt.