W.H.O. (are you), WHO WHO

[Montegriffo]

Well, I can't totally explain it, but if I were responsible for the stability of the global economy, I would probably have been very cautious about over reacting. I can't say I would have done any different when balancing the two disasters, public health and economic, against each other.

I do wish he would stop firing broadsides against everyone in order to deflect responsibility, and just be open about his decision making processes, where the info was bad, and mistakes were made. But, the fact that he is petty, narcissistic, and short sighted doesn't mean he was wrong to be cautious about shutting down the economy, or responsible for any of the deaths.

It's the prioritising of the economy over any public health concerns that I find the most troubling.
My suspicious mind is led to believe that reelection in November is his primary motivation.

It may be that Trump's motivation was saving his own hide. In fact, knowing anything about Trump, it probably was. That doesn't make it the wrong decision.

Hind sight is 20/20, but in the moment, I don't think prioritizing the economy was wrong. In fact, I still think the economic fallout might be so bad that it will make trying to save 500,000 people, many of whom are already chronically ill, will seem silly. Its possible, and not knowing anything about a novel virus, by definition, prioritizing the economy for any reason is a sensible thing to do.

Well, as someone suffering pretty severe economic consequences myself, the idea of sacrificing my elderly mother in order to avoid temporary financial hardship is unthinkable.
It's likely that my sector of the economy will be one of the last to open up just as it was the first to be closed down.
How governments act to mitigate the economic consequences will be a real test of their quality to be sure.
Millions of deaths would also have had pretty bad consequences for the economy though. Even if pubs hadn't been forced to shut I think they would still have had trouble operating profitably with people dying in large numbers all around us. As much as people enjoy a pie and a pint I think most would stay at home in the face of an uncontrolled spread of the virus.

[Martin Hash]

Sanctimony is the handmaiden of egalitarianism.

[C-Mag]

I do wonder, if it should turn out that bat aids is seasonal and becomes worse by fall/winter '20, if that will benefit or worsen Trump's re-election chances among his voters? Not sure if he can do it constitutionally, but in an interview he seemingly hinted at demanding that voters shouldn't be allowed to vote by mail. Seemed like a bad move on his part, politically. Even if most Democratic voters are in the cities, and they'll opt for staying home for fear of bat aids, there are still going to be some who vote.

It is going to be interesting to watch. The other side of this equation is Biden and how voters will see the ability of each to handle the crisis.

I do believe the experts got the early predictions wrong, dramatically overstating the numbers. Does this benefit Trump ? He can say the Experts predicted 2.2 Million dead and there are only X dead, I saved lives.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

It's the prioritising of the economy over any public health concerns that I find the most troubling.
My suspicious mind is led to believe that reelection in November is his primary motivation.

It may be that Trump's motivation was saving his own hide. In fact, knowing anything about Trump, it probably was. That doesn't make it the wrong decision.

Hind sight is 20/20, but in the moment, I don't think prioritizing the economy was wrong. In fact, I still think the economic fallout might be so bad that it will make trying to save 500,000 people, many of whom are already chronically ill, will seem silly. Its possible, and not knowing anything about a novel virus, by definition, prioritizing the economy for any reason is a sensible thing to do.

Well, as someone suffering pretty severe economic consequences myself, the idea of sacrificing my elderly mother in order to avoid temporary financial hardship is unthinkable.
It's likely that my sector of the economy will be one of the last to open up just as it was the first to be closed down.
How governments act to mitigate the economic consequences will be a real test of their quality to be sure.
Millions of deaths would also have had pretty bad consequences for the economy though. Even if pubs hadn't been forced to shut I think they would still have had trouble operating profitably with people dying in large numbers all around us. As much as people enjoy a pie and a pint I think most would stay at home in the face of an uncontrolled spread of the virus.

Sure, I wouldn't sacrifice my loved ones for my own comfort either... but I would be lying if said there wasn't a number of destroyed lives through long term economic depression that wouldn't have me considering dropping my grandparents or parents myself.

Karamazov's grand inquisitor was in the right against Jesus. It is selfish and cowardly not to even consider making the hard choice of an immediate sacrifice to avoid worse suffering down the road.

[heydaralon]

Two of my buddies got laid off. They have kids. They do not know what the fuck they are going to do. Like I would rather roll the dice, get the flu for 2 weeks and have a super high chance of survival than have to deal with losing my livelihood and being assfucked for the next several years looking for work having to sell cars/get into vicious fights with my wife and family over financial troubles.


What really pisses me off about this shit is that a lot of the people at my job saying that we have to shut everything down have like $1200 phones and are the most shallow fucking social media narcissists that are an embodiment of everything they supposedly hate about the neoliberalism in their Bernie bullshit views.


Tens of thousands of Americans drive on the roads and die on them each year. Idk how many die from alcohol related shit. We have about 50,000 who will die from the regular flu.

This wuhan shit is serious, but is the sheer amount of collateral damage we are going to face worth shutting it down the way we are? I don't know, but I do know that risk is a part of life, and that it seems like people in the West want it both ways.

I deal with this shit at work every day and I make shit. I could get sick. I probably will. But I know I'm grateful for my job. I know not having one outweighs the risk of potentially getting sick.

[C-Mag]

Two of my buddies got laid off. They have kids. They do not know what the fuck they are going to do. Like I would rather roll the dice, get the flu for 2 weeks and have a super high chance of survival than have to deal with losing my livelihood and being assfucked for the next several years looking for work having to sell cars/get into vicious fights with my wife and family over financial troubles.

We are going to have to weigh this out as a nation. The reaction may have been worse than the virus. Hard to say.

[Smitty-48]

Sanctimony is the handmaiden of egalitarianism.

Ooh, I like it, that's a good one *hat tip*

[heydaralon]

Sanctimony is the handmaiden of egalitarianism.

I'm not trying to sound sanctimonious Martin, and I'm sorry. I know people who are going to be financially fucked for the forseeable future and it pisses me off when I hear "people over profit" or whatever. Its like no you fucking idiots, without the profit you can't help the people. Profit and surplus fund the health stuff. They are the reason this country is awesome and has thrived. We should act cautiously fucking up the livelihoods of those who suppport this system.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Two of my buddies got laid off. They have kids. They do not know what the fuck they are going to do. Like I would rather roll the dice, get the flu for 2 weeks and have a super high chance of survival than have to deal with losing my livelihood and being assfucked for the next several years looking for work having to sell cars/get into vicious fights with my wife and family over financial troubles.


What really pisses me off about this shit is that a lot of the people at my job saying that we have to shut everything down have like $1200 phones and are the most shallow fucking social media narcissists that are an embodiment of everything they supposedly hate about the neoliberalism in their Bernie bullshit views.


Tens of thousands of Americans drive on the roads and die on them each year. Idk how many die from alcohol related shit. We have about 50,000 who will die from the regular flu.

This wuhan shit is serious, but is the sheer amount of collateral damage we are going to face worth shutting it down the way we are? I don't know, but I do know that risk is a part of life, and that it seems like people in the West want it both ways.

I deal with this shit at work every day and I make shit. But I know I'm grateful for my job. I know not having one outweighs the risk of potentially getting sick.

One of my close friends I play bluegrass with was just starting a new logistics job and got furloughed, possibly permanently laid off, and his wife is a classical piano teacher and music director. Neither of them are working right now. They have two kids, and may have to move back in with family because they didn't have 3 months of runway built up.
I would certainly tell my parents or people with chronic chest conditions or diabetes just to stay the fuck home and keep the rest of the world moving, even if it carried a higher risk to them.

[Montegriffo]

Granted the relatively low death rate in the USA may have more to do with the US private healthcare system over European public health systems. But it could have been the early actions of Trump to limit travel when the WHO and political opponents were saying it was racist.

Either way the Euro Trump haters lose. Either Trump acted appropriately and it's resulted in lives saved, or the healthcare system in the US is superior to those in the EU.

Or EU’s superior socialized healthcare creates more old people than US. Not that I agree with this - EU death rate is higher bc they have more old farts.

Life expectancy is higher in many European countries than it is in the US. The UK's is higher for example.
Europe is more densely populated too which is a factor in the spread of a highly contagious virus.
If you want to compare like with like it may be more useful to compare the effectiveness of New York's healthcare system with that of London or any other European city of similar size.
You might not like the outcome though.