Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[BjornP]

Perhaps you missed this post?

Anti-semitism neither started nor ended with Hitler but Mein Kampfe helped to legitimise the persecution of Jews.

No, I did not. That particular book also didn't "help legitimise" the persecution of Jews beyond how the persecution of Jews had always been considered legitimate during historical pogroms and isolated persecutions. It would be like imagining that the only reason a modern day Palestinian wanted to kill Jews, would be because he read Mein Kampf. Have a sense of historical context, please. There were many Germans who blamed Jews for the "unfair" terms of the Versailles Treaty. Their hatred needed no fanning by a book by the incarcerated head of a failed coup. Mein Kampf didn't invent or popularize something that wasn't already there.

It wasn't that book that made or "legitimised" people destroy Jewish businesses during the Krystallnacht, or round up Jewish families in fields, forests and camps and either gun them down or gas them. What made them do that was the blessing of the state, that their society did not come together and said: "No, we don't act like this". No one did, because that's not what their society wanted back then. Legitimisation is what society does morally, and what law does legally.

[BjornP]

Look at this freedom hating nanny stater Dane trying to pull rank.

You hate Freedom dude. Your gov't takes 75% of your income in taxes. Your country doesn't even have a culture. You got schoener from the Germans and bicycles from Italy. Flight Attendents are not Danish but borrowed from Finland.

You so SASsy, HD.

[heydaralon]

Look at this freedom hating nanny stater Dane trying to pull rank.

You hate Freedom dude. Your gov't takes 75% of your income in taxes. Your country doesn't even have a culture. You got schoener from the Germans and bicycles from Italy. Flight Attendents are not Danish but borrowed from Finland.

You so SASsy, HD.

Dude, just stop.

You will recall in an earlier thread my claim that my father was a 9/11 first responder. I deserve better than this. He deserves more respect as does his son.

It will break his heart when I show him this thread. He doesn't want people to mock me. I don't want that either.

I guess the way I will help him get past this and move on with his life is by telling him that we all face challenges in life.

"Dad, I love you. You have inspired me to take chances on this online forum. The hate and adversity I face on here is identical to the hate and adversity you faced when 19 Danish muslims hijacked airliners and crashed them into those buildings. I now understand what you went through."

In my mind, after replaying this conversation back again and again, I feel like my dad will look at me with a smile on his face, and a tear in his eye. He is so full of pride that he is ready to burst. His son has finally proven himself, and the tens of thousands of dollars he invested in his son have finally panned out.

"You are all grown up son," he will say.

"One day you will have your own son who will get into arguments on internet forums."


"Don't cry dad, you did a great job raising me!"

"It was all worth it son. It was all worth it."

[The Conservative]

Did I mention Mein Kampf is STILL available today? Google it: easy to find.

They sell it at B&N.

[Montegriffo]

Perhaps you missed this post?

Anti-semitism neither started nor ended with Hitler but Mein Kampfe helped to legitimise the persecution of Jews.

No, I did not. That particular book also didn't "help legitimise" the persecution of Jews beyond how the persecution of Jews had always been considered legitimate during historical pogroms and isolated persecutions. It would be like imagining that the only reason a modern day Palestinian wanted to kill Jews, would be because he read Mein Kampf. Have a sense of historical context, please. There were many Germans who blamed Jews for the "unfair" terms of the Versailles Treaty. Their hatred needed no fanning by a book by the incarcerated head of a failed coup. Mein Kampf didn't invent or popularize something that wasn't already there.

It wasn't that book that made or "legitimised" people destroy Jewish businesses during the Krystallnacht, or round up Jewish families in fields, forests and camps and either gun them down or gas them. What made them do that was the blessing of the state, that their society did not come together and said: "No, we don't act like this". No one did, because that's not what their society wanted back then. Legitimisation is what society does morally, and what law does legally.

...and the book, along with other hate speech, legitamised the persecution of Jews until it reached the point that not persecuting them made you an outcast.
No one is born hating Jews. Bigotry is learned behavior. Arabs don't just wake up one day hating the West to the point where they will strap on a suicide vest. They are whipped up and encouraged by hate preachers and ISIS propaganda.
Incitement to hatred serves no useful purpose for a society.
Speeding at 100mph past a school will not end in the death of children every time but the small chance of it resulting in death makes it unacceptable to society. Likewise inciting hatred will not turn everyone into a Mosque shooter but the few cases where it does makes it unacceptable.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Perhaps you missed this post?

No, I did not. That particular book also didn't "help legitimise" the persecution of Jews beyond how the persecution of Jews had always been considered legitimate during historical pogroms and isolated persecutions. It would be like imagining that the only reason a modern day Palestinian wanted to kill Jews, would be because he read Mein Kampf. Have a sense of historical context, please. There were many Germans who blamed Jews for the "unfair" terms of the Versailles Treaty. Their hatred needed no fanning by a book by the incarcerated head of a failed coup. Mein Kampf didn't invent or popularize something that wasn't already there.

It wasn't that book that made or "legitimised" people destroy Jewish businesses during the Krystallnacht, or round up Jewish families in fields, forests and camps and either gun them down or gas them. What made them do that was the blessing of the state, that their society did not come together and said: "No, we don't act like this". No one did, because that's not what their society wanted back then. Legitimisation is what society does morally, and what law does legally.

...and the book, along with other hate speech, legitamised the persecution of Jews until it reached the point that not persecuting them made you an outcast.
No one is born hating Jews. Bigotry is learned behavior. Arabs don't just wake up one day hating the West to the point where they will strap on a suicide vest. They are whipped up and encouraged by hate preachers and ISIS propaganda.
Incitement to hatred serves no useful purpose for a society.
Speeding at 100mph past a school will not end in the death of children every time but the small chance of it resulting in death makes it unacceptable to society. Likewise inciting hatred will not turn everyone into a Mosque shooter but the few cases where it does makes it unacceptable.

This is not the hill to die on, my friend. You have a unanimous consensus against your views. Time to re-evaluate.

[BjornP]

Monte, if you read a first hand historical account describing - and justifying - a past genocide, will you suddenly find genocide legitimate?

If you read Mein Kampf or just a bit of it, would you suddenly find the notion of gassing the Jews legitimised?

If you read an ancient Assyrian royal mural commemorating the defeat of enemies, would you suddenly think: "Hmm, impaling your political opponents seems to totally legitimate"?

[Montegriffo]

Monte, if you read a first hand historical account describing - and justifying - a past genocide, will you suddenly find genocide legitimate?

If you read Mein Kampf or just a bit of it, would you suddenly find the notion of gassing the Jews legitimised?

If you read an ancient Assyrian royal mural commemorating the defeat of enemies, would you suddenly think: "Hmm, impaling your political opponents seems to totally legitimate"?

We're not talking about whether I will be influenced by incitement to hatred.
We're talking about whether the shisha bar shooter was influenced by it.
His browsing history and his manifesto seem to indicate that he was.

[Montegriffo]

No, I did not. That particular book also didn't "help legitimise" the persecution of Jews beyond how the persecution of Jews had always been considered legitimate during historical pogroms and isolated persecutions. It would be like imagining that the only reason a modern day Palestinian wanted to kill Jews, would be because he read Mein Kampf. Have a sense of historical context, please. There were many Germans who blamed Jews for the "unfair" terms of the Versailles Treaty. Their hatred needed no fanning by a book by the incarcerated head of a failed coup. Mein Kampf didn't invent or popularize something that wasn't already there.

It wasn't that book that made or "legitimised" people destroy Jewish businesses during the Krystallnacht, or round up Jewish families in fields, forests and camps and either gun them down or gas them. What made them do that was the blessing of the state, that their society did not come together and said: "No, we don't act like this". No one did, because that's not what their society wanted back then. Legitimisation is what society does morally, and what law does legally.

...and the book, along with other hate speech, legitamised the persecution of Jews until it reached the point that not persecuting them made you an outcast.
No one is born hating Jews. Bigotry is learned behavior. Arabs don't just wake up one day hating the West to the point where they will strap on a suicide vest. They are whipped up and encouraged by hate preachers and ISIS propaganda.
Incitement to hatred serves no useful purpose for a society.
Speeding at 100mph past a school will not end in the death of children every time but the small chance of it resulting in death makes it unacceptable to society. Likewise inciting hatred will not turn everyone into a Mosque shooter but the few cases where it does makes it unacceptable.

This is not the hill to die on, my friend. You have a unanimous consensus against your views. Time to re-evaluate.

Much as I value the MHF consensus, nothing will convince me to argue for a person's right to incite hatred.
It is not a right that any person needs.

[heydaralon]

Its very interesting that every modern genocide was given the government's blessing. The government decided that this was the new value system.

Yet many people feel comfortable with the government deciding the current value system.


When it comes to genocides, I cannot think of an example that did not emanate from the government.

Out of Curiosity Monte, how would you feel if Trump banned MLK Jr.'s speeches, or WEB DuBois?

"I don't want blacks reading this stuff and getting angry and deciding to riot. We don't want them to radicalize."

What if a Jew got angry about reading the Diary of Anne Frank and decided to shoot a bunch of Germans in Berlin or wherever? Would you be for banning that book?