MartyrMade

[DrYouth]

Western culture did not abandon tribalism. Some Europeans developed separate genetic adaptations.

You don't just adopt some civic nationalism ideology and lose tribalism. If that were true, blacks would not all be tribal literally everywhere they live in large numbers. Blacks in London are not very different from blacks in Chicago in terms of tribalism. Both groups are obviously westerners. Both groups are obviously tribal. It's not culture.

But look at these black guys... they are so tribal... That's your argument?
White bikers are tribal... i mean check out the tribal style tattoos and nose rings...
Serbs are pretty tribal...
Russian mafia is tribal.
Mediterranean europeans are more tribal than northern europeans...

All humans can fall back to tribalism... it's a matter of how entrenched western culture is as to how far back they fall... and how easy it is to fall in the first place... or whether it is a fall at all.
How much of this is genetic is completely unproven... and I would say basically irrelevant to my point.

[Speaker to Animals]

Western culture did not abandon tribalism. Some Europeans developed separate genetic adaptations.

You don't just adopt some civic nationalism ideology and lose tribalism. If that were true, blacks would not all be tribal literally everywhere they live in large numbers. Blacks in London are not very different from blacks in Chicago in terms of tribalism. Both groups are obviously westerners. Both groups are obviously tribal. It's not culture.

But look at these black guys... they are so tribal... That's your argument?
White bikers are tribal... i mean check out the tribal style tattoos and nose rings...
Serbs are pretty tribal...
Russian mafia is tribal.
Mediterranean europeans are more tribal than northern europeans...

All humans can fall back to tribalism... it's a matter of how entrenched western culture is as to how far back they fall... and how easy it is to fall in the first place... or whether it is a fall at all.
How much of this is genetic is completely unproven... and I would say basically irrelevant to my point.

Don't be such a pussy. You know the refutation.

You claimed that our transition to civic nationalism from tribalism was merely a cultural change. But if that were true, then literally four to five centuries of western acculturation should have resulted in blacks and indigenous peoples becoming civic nationalists. That did not happen. They are all tribal.

Thus your argument has a glaring contradiction.

[DrYouth]

Don't be such a pussy. You know the refutation.

You claimed that our transition to civic nationalism from tribalism was merely a cultural change. But if that were true, then literally four to five centuries of western acculturation should have resulted in blacks and indigenous peoples becoming civic nationalists. That did not happen. They are all tribal.

Thus your argument has a glaring contradiction.

How am I being a pussy? In what way? For not agreeing with your vapid arguments?

What does "merely a cultural change" even mean?

I'm not even ruling out the possibility that there might be some genetics involved in this change... there is obviously no way to prove that there isn't...

But white bikers... there they are being tribal... despite their white genetics. Seems an equivalent contradiction to me.

It's not hard to see why blacks and indigenous are not civic nationalists... They were much more impacted by geography and colonialism... Asians had progressed away from tribalism already under Chinese bureaucracy for millennia..

[Fife]

OK, I'm about ready to try out The Melian Dialogue while working out today. Any other comments on it before I listen?

My deference to Cooper and the passage of a few months since that third episode debacle of the My Lai to Sand Creek series (1st two episodes good, 3rd episode monumentally disgusting) has me about ready to give Bolelli + Cooper another try.

[Speaker to Animals]

Don't be such a pussy. You know the refutation.

You claimed that our transition to civic nationalism from tribalism was merely a cultural change. But if that were true, then literally four to five centuries of western acculturation should have resulted in blacks and indigenous peoples becoming civic nationalists. That did not happen. They are all tribal.

Thus your argument has a glaring contradiction.

How am I being a pussy? In what way? For not agreeing with your vapid arguments?

What does "merely a cultural change" even mean?

I'm not even ruling out the possibility that there might be some genetics involved in this change... there is obviously no way to prove that there isn't...

But white bikers... there they are being tribal... despite their white genetics. Seems an equivalent contradiction to me.

Your argument has an obvious contradiction, DrY. Declaring a clear refutation of your idea as "vapid" amounts to an admission that you lost this one.

You claimed the transition to civic nationalism was merely cultural, but if that were true, then we wouldn't see Natives acting tribal after five hundred years, or black people acting tribal in every single western city they occupy in large numbers after four hundred years.

How many centuries do you suppose is enough for black people to adopt your magic civic nationalist ideas? If it's just an attitude, value, or belief, then surely it would have stuck by now..

[DrYouth]

Your argument has an obvious contradiction, DrY. Declaring a clear refutation of your idea as "vapid" amounts to an admission that you lost this one.

You claimed the transition to civic nationalism was merely cultural, but if that were true, then we wouldn't see Natives acting tribal after five hundred years, or black people acting tribal in every single western city they occupy in large numbers after four hundred years.

How many centuries do you suppose is enough for black people to adopt your magic civic nationalist ideas? If it's just an attitude, value, or belief, then surely it would have stuck by now..

Repeated from above edit...

It's not hard to see why blacks and indigenous are not civic nationalists... They were much more impacted by geography and colonialism... Asians had progressed away from tribalism already under Chinese bureaucracy for millennia...

Some black states are making some progress so it's not inconceivable they will catch up with in a century...

[Speaker to Animals]

Your argument has an obvious contradiction, DrY. Declaring a clear refutation of your idea as "vapid" amounts to an admission that you lost this one.

You claimed the transition to civic nationalism was merely cultural, but if that were true, then we wouldn't see Natives acting tribal after five hundred years, or black people acting tribal in every single western city they occupy in large numbers after four hundred years.

How many centuries do you suppose is enough for black people to adopt your magic civic nationalist ideas? If it's just an attitude, value, or belief, then surely it would have stuck by now..

Repeated from above edit...

It's not hard to see why blacks and indigenous are not civic nationalists... They were much more impacted by geography and colonialism... Asians had progressed away from tribalism already under Chinese bureaucracy for millennia..

Oh, I see.

So you want to argue that races which are still tribalistic are tribal because of white racism, and pretty much every tribal ethnicity and race living in the western world remains so because of racism and not genetics.

Good fallback.

[DrYouth]

Oh, I see.

So you want to argue that races which are still tribalistic are tribal because of white racism, and pretty much every tribal ethnicity and race living in the western world remains so because of racism and not genetics.

Good fallback.

Not racism...

Geography and the nuts and bolts of empire as it has always been.

Were the Aztecs racist when their empire expanded.
Were the Romans racists when they enslaved the Greeks.
Were the Africans and Native Americans racists when they battled tribe to tribe for spoils and slaves to trade to the Europeans.

[Fife]

I posted a quote in the Nobel Prize thread a few days ago from a book some of you would enjoy.

It's by Hoppe, which is enough to make some of you preemptively wrinkle up your panties in disgust, and that's OK. It's a free book at the Mises library site, and it's a pithy look at what you all are arguing about ITT.

Speaking of inherited intelligence and regional/cultural differences, I was re-reading Hoppe's recent A Short History of Man: Progress and Decline last night, which I commend to you history buffs.

The Industrial Revolution, then, marks the point, when the level of human rationality had reached a level high enough to make the escape from Malthusianism possible. And the escape is reconstructed as a result of the “breeding,” over many generations, of a more intelligent population. Higher intelligence translated into a greater economic success, and greater economic success combined with selective marriage- and family-policies translated into greater reproductive success (the production of a larger number of surviving descendants). This combined with the laws of human genetics and civil inheritance produced over time a more intelligent, ingenious and innovative population.

Kindle edition, location 144/1859.

Want to help out sub-Saharan IQ and happiness? Figure out a way to trade with them in commerce. "Foreign aid" is the most certain way to put them in low-IQ bondage forever; it's not much different that the Dutch and British slave trade exploiting Africa centuries ago.

Free book (and free audio) link at Mises: https://mises.org/library/short-history ... nd-decline

A Short History of Man: Progress and Decline is nothing less than a concise revisionist history of man, skillfully presented by Dr. Hoppe. He addresses the rise of family structures, the development of private property, social evolution prior to the Industrial Revolution, and the rise of the state — all without regard for cherished myths. Dr. Hoppe will make you rethink your assumptions regarding man's development in this engaging book.

[DrYouth]

Higher Intelligence is likely an outcome of the individualist west... I have posited an argument in terms of left over right brain dominance... above in this thread...

Whether genetics is involved is unproven... and most likely epigenetic given the relative short timeline of western cultural ascendancy.