Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[heydaralon]

Going slightly off topic here, what sort of effect on consumption would a carbon tax have?

Assuming a properly functioning carbon tax, where we properly address the sources of CO2, it would have the effect of less CO2 in the atmosphere at first.

Great.

But those carbon taxes got to be spent somewhere, right? Can't spend it on infrastructure, health care, so on, which lessens the tax burden on the population, as they'd just end up with more money to spend, and more to consume. So we're back at square one.

Or the carbon tax could be spent on renewable energy, making us independent from fossil fuels. Fine, get all those windmills and solar panels working, fire them up. They're now cheap, affordable, and we can continue consuming like in the fossil fuel age. Even better, we can consume more, once we've grown tired of all this green talk, and keep using the fossil fuels, in addition to our new green paradigm. Because now it's even cheaper.

End result, with or without carbon tax is the same. If we have an economy dependent on growth, which we all have. We can't reduce consumption. And we're not going to vote in anyone with the political platform of "halving your income". And whichever state that manages to vote in someone like that, will experience a financial collapse, like the Soviet Union, making a good warning for anyone else suggesting to follow their footsteps.

Basically the only thing that can reduce CO2-emissions, is less people in the world. Less people, less consumption. And it will happen one day, a massive die-off, giving the world a more sustainable population than the insane 8 billion we are today.

+1 Good post Oterrn

[Montegriffo]

I disagree,(you'll be shocked to hear) electricity output peaked in the 90's here in the UK. Regulations driving the manufacture of low energy goods are responsible for this. I have heard that going all-electric car use would only return us to those 1990's levels. Our energy production since the 90's has moved away from fossil fuels and towards renewable sources.
It is possible to maintain levels of economic growth without a corresponding increase in GH emissions.
Information on carbon footprints helps us to move away from the worst offending products and towards greener alternatives.

It peaked, then it went down, as production in lower income countries could supply the goods at a better price. You use more electricity today than then, but not directly. It's being used for production in those other countries, and consumed in the west.

It's not possible to maintain levels of economic growth while at the same time reduce emission levels. The oil is there, the coal is there, gas is still there, we still want to make concrete, and we're going to exploit that. Renewable energy is the future, sure. But it's not in human nature to simply stop exploiting accessible resources. Not when exploiting those resources will give them an edge over competing economies.

Remove the edge.

[Otern]

Remove the edge.

That's communism.

[heydaralon]

I disagree,(you'll be shocked to hear) electricity output peaked in the 90's here in the UK. Regulations driving the manufacture of low energy goods are responsible for this. I have heard that going all-electric car use would only return us to those 1990's levels. Our energy production since the 90's has moved away from fossil fuels and towards renewable sources.
It is possible to maintain levels of economic growth without a corresponding increase in GH emissions.
Information on carbon footprints helps us to move away from the worst offending products and towards greener alternatives.

It peaked, then it went down, as production in lower income countries could supply the goods at a better price. You use more electricity today than then, but not directly. It's being used for production in those other countries, and consumed in the west.

It's not possible to maintain levels of economic growth while at the same time reduce emission levels. The oil is there, the coal is there, gas is still there, we still want to make concrete, and we're going to exploit that. Renewable energy is the future, sure. But it's not in human nature to simply stop exploiting accessible resources. Not when exploiting those resources will give them an edge over competing economies.

+2

Otern is on fire shutting down these enviro-bolshies

[Otern]

+2

Otern is on fire shutting down these enviro-bolshies

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here at all.

[Montegriffo]

But it's not in human nature to simply stop exploiting accessible resources. Not when exploiting those resources will give them an edge over competing economies.

Human nature's a bitch.
Sometimes you have to fight it.

[Montegriffo]

+2

Otern is on fire shutting down these enviro-bolshies

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here at all.

HD does not realise we are arguing from the same side of the fence.

[Montegriffo]

It peaked, then it went down, as production in lower income countries could supply the goods at a better price. You use more electricity today than then, but not directly. It's being used for production in those other countries, and consumed in the west.

OK, I see that.
Let's hope it puts an end to all those ''why should we change our habits look at what China does'' arguments.

Doesn't change the fact that improvements in technology can drive emissions downwards while still maintaining production levels.

[Otern]

But it's not in human nature to simply stop exploiting accessible resources. Not when exploiting those resources will give them an edge over competing economies.

Human nature's a bitch.
Sometimes you have to fight it.

Yes. And that's the entire point. If we want to reduce our carbon footprint, we need to reduce our consumption. We can't have an endless growth, without facing some harsh consequences.

If we can't do that, there's no use. We keep doing minor things, to excuse our consumption elsewhere. Taking the bus to the airport before traveling half the world. Riding your bike to work, and spend the money you made there on shit you don't need, produced and shipped from the other side of the world.

All of us do these things. None of us really helps, but sometimes we do these small things to get a good conscience. But we still need to have more than our neighbor. We still need to be better than that other guy. We'd rather destroy the world, than save it, and be a sucker.

[heydaralon]

Growth, both economic and population is the root problem and why all these environmental issues are happening to one degree or another right? Since no one wants to stop economic growth, it seems like most of these policies and proposals don't do much of anything and we will continue to grow pop wise and econ wise until external forces stop us regardless of what type of energy we use or where we stand politically. If that was not your point, then I retract my support, and apologize for misunderstanding you.