Where's an Environmentalist when you need one

[nmoore63]

I always thought it weird that the vegans folks weren't way more into artificial.

Vegan is the opposite of organic, if you will.

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Not to be confused with the folks that are simply anti the industrial meat industry.

Hmm, could you explain

Well our species eats meat.
To reject that is to reject our natural order. To rise above it in theory.

What's more beyond our nature than artificial products?

Do you disagree?
Do you contend that to be vegan is a natural homo sapiens state?

[BjornP]

Claiming that there’s a human diet that is the true natural one is quite funny, given the diversity of the human menu, (which in some parts includes other humans btw).

The evidence for veganism being an extremely healthy option for humans is overwhelming, one would have to go digging far from the medical and nutritional consensus to find evidence otherwise.

It's true that arguing that veganism is "against nature" is meaningless, but that's hardly a reason to stop eating meat either. As for "healthy options".... even if your claims were true, what a sad, grey, depressing world we would live in if we didn't allow ourselves something nice, tasty, deliciously unhealthy meat once and again. Coffee is unhealthy, chocolate is unhealthy. And that's just food... think of the health risks associated with homosexuality... *gasp* *pearl clutching*. Such an unhealthy lifestyle should be heavily discouraged. And abortion! Or "unhealthy" thoughts.

[JohnDonne]

Claiming that there’s a human diet that is the true natural one is quite funny, given the diversity of the human menu, (which in some parts includes other humans btw).

The evidence for veganism being an extremely healthy option for humans is overwhelming, one would have to go digging far from the medical and nutritional consensus to find evidence otherwise.

It's true that arguing that veganism is "against nature" is meaningless, but that's hardly a reason to stop eating meat either. As for "healthy options".... even if your claims were true, what a sad, grey, depressing world we would live in if we didn't allow ourselves something nice, tasty, deliciously unhealthy meat once and again. Coffee is unhealthy, chocolate is unhealthy. And that's just food... think of the health risks associated with homosexuality... *gasp* *pearl clutching*. Such an unhealthy lifestyle should be heavily discouraged. And abortion! Or "unhealthy" thoughts.

My main point about veganism has nothing to do with any appeal to nature fallacies or fat police style health proselytization, it is simply the same point I’ve made again and again, that it’s unethical to kill a sentient creature when there are plenty of other food options available. The overall well being of all sentience would be vastly increased with the widespread adoption of the vegan lifestyle. Not only that, meatless substitutes abound on the market and meat is even being grown in laboratories. So one may enjoy nearly the same luxuries of taste without the unimaginable cruelty and industrial blood nightmare that widespread meat eating requires. That result is contrary in my view to a sad grey world.

[Speaker to Animals]

Except it's terribly unhealthy because you are a fucking homo sapiens. Do you understand this? For fuck sake. You are not supposed to eat food like a God damned giraffe.

[JohnDonne]

Hmm, could you explain

Well our species eats meat.
To reject that is to reject our natural order. To rise above it in theory.

What's more beyond our nature than artificial products?

Do you disagree?
Do you contend that to be vegan is a natural homo sapiens state?

How can I say something found in nature, our nature, is beyond it? Was it not natural that humans got empathy and intelligence? Is it not natural that our intelligence leads to technology, which leads to a lack of need for things like meat to survive, and is it not natural that our empathy leads to ethical discourse?

[heydaralon]

Well our species eats meat.
To reject that is to reject our natural order. To rise above it in theory.

What's more beyond our nature than artificial products?

Do you disagree?
Do you contend that to be vegan is a natural homo sapiens state?

How can I say something found in nature, our nature, is beyond it? Was it not natural that humans got empathy and intelligence? Is it not natural that our intelligence leads to technology, which leads to a lack of need for things like meat to survive, and is it not natural that our empathy leads to ethical discourse?

Do you live in a human civilization with roads, factories, internal combustion engines, and supply chains from farm to table set up? Do you run your A/C? Do you use plastics and styrofoam in anyway? Do you have children? Do you live in a way that is outside of basic survival? If you answered yes to any of those things, then guess what? You are responsible for the mass die off of animals that you bemoan. Animals are killed by hunters and factory farms. They are also killed when we take land and the resources they need to survive and use it to live on, work on, and debate on an internet forum. There is no getting around this. Additionally, if we decide that we won't eat meat or hunt a certain animal, then it will grow in the wild until a plague or another species competes and kills it. There is no getting around this either.

I would take vegans far more seriously if they acknowledged this fact and admitted that they are as much a problem as the omnivore sapiens they rail against. You can't have it both ways. Either you acknowledge that we are apex predators at the top of the food chain who do affect our environment and eat and kill other animals, or you live in such a way that utterly minimizes your impact, effectively lowering yourself to their level on the food chain. Giving up meat is great. Really want to save animals? Live in a tent in the woods without electricity and plumbing, and don't farm in any way shape or form. because that takes natural animal habitat and displaces them. Just pick fruits and mushrooms you find on the ground. Also, don't reproduce, because more children equals more farmland needed and more lost habitat. You are killing animals, but your cognitive gymanistics are blinding you to this fact.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Best argument against vaganism is physiological.

Gorillas are pretty much vegetarians, and have a massive gut, in order to get enough nutrients from plants - as do every other herbivore. We do not.

Herbivores all have flat teeth, except for pandas - and we aren’t going to survive on bamboo. We do not.

We require more calories for the oversized brains than any other animal - 20% of our metabolic energy. Not possible with raw plants.

Now we can get around all this by cooking the plants and taking supplements. But it’s simply not what we are built for. It’s not our ‘most natural diet’.

In addition, and most importantly, we cannot pretend to know everything about how our bodies work, other than that they need variety in the diet. There could be endless pitfalls to health associated with a more manipulated diet, that we don’t know about yet. Best to keep it as close as possible to the norm.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Claiming that there’s a human diet that is the true natural one is quite funny, given the diversity of the human menu, (which in some parts includes other humans btw).

The evidence for veganism being an extremely healthy option for humans is overwhelming, one would have to go digging far from the medical and nutritional consensus to find evidence otherwise.

It's true that arguing that veganism is "against nature" is meaningless, but that's hardly a reason to stop eating meat either. As for "healthy options".... even if your claims were true, what a sad, grey, depressing world we would live in if we didn't allow ourselves something nice, tasty, deliciously unhealthy meat once and again. Coffee is unhealthy, chocolate is unhealthy. And that's just food... think of the health risks associated with homosexuality... *gasp* *pearl clutching*. Such an unhealthy lifestyle should be heavily discouraged. And abortion! Or "unhealthy" thoughts.

How are coffee and chocolate unhealthy, other than increased sugar intake?

[nmoore63]

Well our species eats meat.
To reject that is to reject our natural order. To rise above it in theory.

What's more beyond our nature than artificial products?

Do you disagree?
Do you contend that to be vegan is a natural homo sapiens state?

How can I say something found in nature, our nature, is beyond it? Was it not natural that humans got empathy and intelligence? Is it not natural that our intelligence leads to technology, which leads to a lack of need for things like meat to survive, and is it not natural that our empathy leads to ethical discourse?

Monsanto is natural then.

[Speaker to Animals]

Claiming that there’s a human diet that is the true natural one is quite funny, given the diversity of the human menu, (which in some parts includes other humans btw).

The evidence for veganism being an extremely healthy option for humans is overwhelming, one would have to go digging far from the medical and nutritional consensus to find evidence otherwise.

It's true that arguing that veganism is "against nature" is meaningless, but that's hardly a reason to stop eating meat either. As for "healthy options".... even if your claims were true, what a sad, grey, depressing world we would live in if we didn't allow ourselves something nice, tasty, deliciously unhealthy meat once and again. Coffee is unhealthy, chocolate is unhealthy. And that's just food... think of the health risks associated with homosexuality... *gasp* *pearl clutching*. Such an unhealthy lifestyle should be heavily discouraged. And abortion! Or "unhealthy" thoughts.

How are coffee and chocolate unhealthy, other than increased sugar intake?

They are not unhealthy at all. Both are good. Just limit sugar.

Chocolate is a superfood. Coffee reduces risks for certain diseases.