Selfishness vs Selflessness

[DrYouth]

There’s selfless and there’s being a doormat. The latter is in itself a form of selfishness, and doesn’t do the partner or children any favors. We have a responsibility to be a role model for our children and to help our spouses become the best people they can be.

We don't have much choice but to be who we are.... wherever that is on the spectrum... even if it is doormat territory.
Telling someone that they are selfish for being that selfless... is about the dumbest possible thing we could say to someone.
We might be able to encourage someone to become less selfless.... but those kind of statements don't accomplish that.

It’s very hard to grow or like yourself if you’re so far on either side of the spectrum that you encourage others’ character defects.

Yes it is hard to like yourself when you are a selfless doormat...
But selfish assholes like themselves just fine.... until they realize that they are selfish assholes... which they usually don't.
And yet that is just the wake-up call that they require.

[MilSpecs]

There’s selfless and there’s being a doormat. The latter is in itself a form of selfishness, and doesn’t do the partner or children any favors. We have a responsibility to be a role model for our children and to help our spouses become the best people they can be.

We don't have much choice but to be who we are.... wherever that is on the spectrum... even if it is doormat territory.
Telling someone that they are selfish for being that selfless... is about the dumbest possible thing we could say to someone.
We might be able to encourage someone to become less selfless.... but those kind of statements don't accomplish that.

It’s very hard to grow or like yourself if you’re so far on either side of the spectrum that you encourage others’ character defects.

Yes it is hard to like yourself when you are a selfless doormat...
But selfish assholes like themselves just fine.... until they realize that they are selfish assholes... which they usually don't.
And yet that is just the wake-up call that they require.

I don't know that we're defining "selfless" the same. That said, not only can we change but it's imperative that we do so if we have damaging character traits. Isn't that the basis of your profession? I'm not saying that an introvert is going to become an extrovert or anything like that, but we have to change if we're harming ourselves or others.

An excessively selfless person gets something out of it, and avoids things she doesn't want to deal with. Same with excessively selfish people. BTW, I've never told anyone that she was selfish for being too much of a pushover in some ways, but I've been asked where it got me in the past and how it affected other people in my life (and passed that question on). Answering that question is painful but necessary. The type and phrasing of the question works better for me and for a lot of other people who don't usually get hit with the truth stick. People hesitate to be blunt with women who have a softer demeanor. They're not doing us any favors. (General) you don't have to be mean, but you have to speak the truth without sugarcoating it. You may feel like a selfish bastard doing so. That doesn't change the necessity of doing so.

[DrYouth]

I don't know that we're defining "selfless" the same. That said, not only can we change but it's imperative that we do so if we have damaging character traits. Isn't that the basis of your profession? I'm not saying that an introvert is going to become an extrovert or anything like that, but we have to change if we're harming ourselves or others.

Of course we can change... but the process of change is anything but inevitable or self evident.

An excessively selfless person gets something out of it, and avoids things she doesn't want to deal with. Same with excessively selfish people. BTW, I've never told anyone that she was selfish for being too much of a pushover in some ways, but I've been asked where it got me in the past and how it affected other people in my life (and passed that question on). Answering that question is painful but necessary. The type and phrasing of the question works better for me and for a lot of other people who don't usually get hit with the truth stick. People hesitate to be blunt with women who have a softer demeanor. They're not doing us any favors. (General) you don't have to be mean, but you have to speak the truth without sugarcoating it. You may feel like a selfish bastard doing so. That doesn't change the necessity of doing so.

Our strategies have evolved for a reason... they are our best effort at getting our needs met in whatever world we grew up in. A selfless strategy works best in a world that has very little room for your needs. Best to look after others and get whatever crumbs might come your way by doing so. Accusing someone of being selfish for attempting to meet their needs in this way seems somehow heartless. The Truthstick you are getting at is that the strategy backfires in situations where this isn't necessary... and leads to exhaustion and resentment certainly... but learning to change our innermost programming is hard confusing work... although most certainly worthwhile work.

Now being partnered to such an individual is natural for the selfish person who accepts unquestioningly the care that the selfless one provides... of course we deserve it... why wouldn't we. We are also somewhat impervious to the exhaustion of the selfless one... not overly troubled by it. It's their choice after all... and at any rate they are better at most things than we are... having been catered to by selfless ones in our past... we aren't particularly skilled at taking care of ourselves.

Although the partnership is natural, it is fundamentally off centre at it's core and thus unstable in the long run...

I'll tell you reworking the foundations requires a lot of deep digging... we're doing pretty well I have to say.

[MilSpecs]

Our strategies have evolved for a reason... they are our best effort at getting our needs met in whatever world we grew up in. A selfless strategy works best in a world that has very little room for your needs. Best to look after others and get whatever crumbs might come your way by doing so.

I didnt know that - very interesting and makes sense.

Accusing someone of being selfish for attempting to meet their needs in this way seems somehow heartless. The Truthstick you are getting at is that the strategy backfires in situations where this isn't necessary... and leads to exhaustion and resentment certainly... but learning to change our innermost programming is hard confusing work... although most certainly worthwhile work.

I don't generally think of being made aware of my character defects as being accused. When people I trust let me know that my thinking isn't as it should be, or that my reactions aren't healthy, they're not being heartless. They're giving me vital information. Does she have someone who can be blunt with her who isn't involved? This is where a sponsor really comes in handy for those on that spiritual path.

Now being partnered to such an individual is natural for the selfish person who accepts unquestioningly the care that the selfless one provides... of course we deserve it... why wouldn't we. We are also somewhat impervious to the exhaustion of the selfless one... not overly troubled by it. It's their choice after all... and at any rate they are better at most things than we are... having been catered to by selfless ones in our past... we aren't particularly skilled at taking care of ourselves.

Although the partnership is natural, it is fundamentally off centre at it's core and thus unstable in the long run...

Also makes sense, but I think we approach the problem from two very different sides. I'm the giver and my husband is a very strong and demanding personality. We tell each other when it becomes too much. We try to take personal inventory and not each other's inventory, but we've been together 33 years so we know each other's character well enough to be able to call each other on our bullshit. We rely on each other for truth even if it's unpleasant.

I'll tell you reworking the foundations requires a lot of deep digging... we're doing pretty well I have to say.

I've been rooting for you to make it through this.

[DrYouth]

I don't generally think of being made aware of my character defects as being accused. When people I trust let me know that my thinking isn't as it should be, or that my reactions aren't healthy, they're not being heartless. They're giving me vital information. Does she have someone who can be blunt with her who isn't involved? This is where a sponsor really comes in handy for those on that spiritual path.

She does and that has been a huge part of the growth process... During the worst of it we became pretty isolated.

Also makes sense, but I think we approach the problem from two very different sides. I'm the giver and my husband is a very strong and demanding personality. We tell each other when it becomes too much. We try to take personal inventory and not each other's inventory, but we've been together 33 years so we know each other's character well enough to be able to call each other on our bullshit. We rely on each other for truth even if it's unpleasant.

Sounds like you are making it work. Just don't let him convince you that you are being selfish when in fact he is being demanding... that's not a truth stick... that's just a stick.

I've been rooting for you to make it through this.

Thanks Mil!
I'm here with my version of a truth stick if you ever need one!

[Kath]

I've been rooting for you to make it through this.

Thanks Mil!
I'm here with my version of a truth stick if you ever need one!

We're all cheering for you.

[DrYouth]

We're all cheering for you.

Well other that STA who thinks I should burn in hell...

I'm trying to serve my time in this life... My wife is my confessor and will meet out the Hail Marys. Who better?

[Speaker to Animals]

We're all cheering for you.

Well other that STA who thinks I should burn in hell...

I'm trying to serve my time in this life... My wife is my confessor and will meet out the Hail Marys. Who better?

lol, what?

I am rooting for you too.

You still should look into that Dove soap with lotion, though.

[DrYouth]

You still should look into that Dove soap with lotion, though.

I don't get it.

[Speaker to Animals]

You still should look into that Dove soap with lotion, though.

I don't get it.

You will, hopefully only for a little while.