Selfishness vs Selflessness

[DrYouth]

As some of you know I've been working hard to salvage my marriage.

This has, perhaps not surprisingly, led me to self reflect....

The topic of selfishness vs selflessness seems apropos.

Which of the two sounds more like a virtue?

Which is a vice?

Do we have a default setting?

Are there gender differences?

If we are going to evolve as persons... do we need to challenge our default settings?

How does this reflect on personal responsibility..... what about hierarchy?

Perhaps these are relevant questions for our time.

[C-Mag]

IMO

The difference is between Wants and Needs.
It is perfectly normal and expected that people will be selfish with needs such as food and shelter. However, selfishness/selflessness of wants is a more learned behavior.

In the US, and I bet Canada too, we are seeing people in the military have a family history of military service. I believe that is because these children are raised for selfless service of military life and willing to put off the wants of their peers.

We also see extreme selfishness in our cultures, this attitude of immediate gratification. That too is learned.

That's my stab at it.

[DrYouth]

My wife was certainly in a selfless default mode...

The problem with this being exhaustion and resentment.

I was certainly in a more selfish default setting...

The problems with this being fairly obvious at face value.... prioritizing the self over the other.

The (less spoken of) advantages of this selfish setting are that you take care of your own needs and are therefore more relaxed and flexible... certainly less resentful... although clueless.

What happens with the selfless individual is that their exhaustion and resentment becomes confusing to the selfish individual...

What's the problem? Why don't you just relax, like I'm doing... join me?

Selfless people don't know how to do this.... they continue to serve others.... never finding the off switch that selfish people find so easily.

[Kath]

Selfless people don't know how to do this.... they continue to serve others.... never finding the off switch that selfish people find so easily.

I like Harry Browne's thoughts on this topic.
https://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/Un ... ssTrap.htm

Each Person Seeks Happiness
We saw in Chapter 2 that each person always acts in ways he believes will make him feel good or will remove discomfort from his life. Because everyone is different from everyone else, each individual goes about it in his own way.

One man devotes his life to helping the poor. Another one lies and steals. Still another person tries to create better products and services for which he hopes to be paid handsomely. One woman devotes herself to her husband and children. Another one seeks a career as a singer.

In every case, the ultimate motivation has been the same. Each person is doing what he believes will assure his happiness. What varies between them is the means each has chosen to gain his happiness.

We could divide them into two groups labeled "selfish" and "unselfish," but I don't think that would prove anything. For the thief and the humanitarian each have the same motive — to do what he believes will make him feel good.

In fact, we can't avoid a very significant conclusion: Everyone is selfish. Selfishness isn't really an issue, because everyone selfishly seeks his own happiness.

What we need to examine, however, are the means various people choose to achieve their happiness. Unfortunately, some people oversimplify the matter by assuming that there are only two basic means: sacrifice yourself for others or make them sacrifice for you. Happily, there's a third way that can produce better consequences than either of those two.

[Speaker to Animals]

I am not exactly Mr. Relationship or anything, but I'd say that, once you are married, the two of you are supposed to be one person, one flesh, which is what made your violation so egregious.


Marriage is supposed to be completely selfless in that both of you give each all you have and a new personal identity (the marital couple) emerges from the fusion. But when you both give your all, you should recognize each other's boundaries as part of the process. It's a seemingly contradictory phenomenon that is made possible only through love. The two are one, but at the same time, each fosters the other to grow and develop into a better person.

It's sort of like the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God is one, but also three persons. Marriage is one, but two persons, and a third (or more) person/s results from that love (analogous to the Holy Spirit).

Definitely don't ever violate that again.

[DrYouth]

@Kath

This really captures the underlying premise...

Which is why I return to the idea of knowing yourself... and moving to the middle.

For the selfish... it starting to sacrifice more.

For the selfless... it is starting to sacrifice less.

Not a cookie cutter, one size fits all model.... which most self help approaches and therapists fall into....

The problem is that most people feel victimized no matter which side of this dialectic one leans towards...

And in any couple one partner will be more selfish or selfless than the other.... because as Einstein discovered... everything is relative.

Also all cultures encourage different amounts of selfish vs selflessness in their indivuals....

Western culture falling pretty far along the selfish part of that continuum.

[DrYouth]

I am not exactly Mr. Relationship or anything, but I'd say that, once you are married, the two of you are supposed to be one person, one flesh, which is what made your violation so egregious.


Marriage is supposed to be completely selfless in that both of you give each all you have and a new personal identity (the marital couple) emerges from the fusion. But when you both give your all, you should recognize each other's boundaries as part of the process. It's a seemingly contradictory phenomenon that is made possible only through love. The two are one, but at the same time, each fosters the other to grow and develop into a better person.

It's sort of like the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God is one, but also three persons. Marriage is one, but two persons, and a third (or more) person/s results from that love (analogous to the Holy Spirit).

Definitely don't ever violate that again.

Yes STA...

I don't plan to.

Coming back to the discussion point....

We all have a default setting about what a relationship looks like.

For the selfless... they give all of themselves... and prioritize the other ahead of the self.... if they consider themselves at all.

For the selfish.... they look after themselves first and consider the other second.... if at all.

In this fusion of individuals into a collective that you refer to... each individual still has responsibility for themselves and the other....

In extremes of selflessness... the person takes no responsibility for themselves.... only serves the other....
In extremes of selfishness..... the person takes no responsibility for the other..... only themselves....

Worth pondering these things when we consider the relationships and the society we would like to live in.

[MilSpecs]

As some of you know I've been working hard to salvage my marriage.

This has, perhaps not surprisingly, led me to self reflect....

The topic of selfishness vs selflessness seems apropos.

Which of the two sounds more like a virtue?

Which is a vice?

Do we have a default setting?

Are there gender differences?

If we are going to evolve as persons... do we need to challenge our default settings?

How does this reflect on personal responsibility..... what about hierarchy?

Perhaps these are relevant questions for our time.

There’s selfless and there’s being a doormat. The latter is in itself a form of selfishness, and doesn’t do the partner or children any favors. We have a responsibility to be a role model for our children and to help our spouses become the best people they can be.

I think there’s something to be said for “I don’t just like you; I like who I am when I’m with you,” if that makes sense. It’s very hard to grow or like yourself if you’re so far on either side of the spectrum that you encourage others’ character defects.

[Speaker to Animals]

Doormat is definitely not an option, and when you truly love a person, it should never happen.

[Speaker to Animals]

In the meantime, check out Dove for men soap. It has like 90% lotion.