Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[nmoore63]

All of human history has considered life to begin at live birth.

??????

You disagree?

History disagrees.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicken ... al_history

[SuburbanFarmer]

No, just for women beyond say four months of pregnancy. The intent is irrelevant.

You are aware that accidental miscarriage is also a fact of life, correct?

My grandmother had a stillborn baby, that would have been my aunt. I did not “lose” an aunt. I simply didn’t have one.

Never ever defended any sort of criminalization of miscarriage. Stop moving the goalposts. This was the question of yours I replied to:

Teen mother drinks herself silly, and miscarries a baby. Is this murder, or child abuse? Put her in the rape cage?

Bonus question: Do unfertilized eggs count as humans, or only those with combined DNA strands?

And now you're on from that, to the totally unrelated "so, what you're saying is you want to hold murder trials for miscarriages"? Teen mother drinks her 8 month old baby in the womb to death, then absolutely she is guilty of manslaughter (not murder, unless one can prove intent somehow). A three week year old fetus, otoh? Irresponsible if she wanted the child, otherwise not a crime.

Btw, about your earlier reply to me pointing out that the Bible only mentions children being considered alive when they first "draw breath"... I ignored because I simply didn't understand what you meant. You do understand that babies/fetuses inside the womb, don't actually breathe on their own, right? "Drawing breath"

Sorry, I assumed that you would follow your string of logic.

Now a teen mother has an accidental miscarriage. Are you having her arrested and sent to trial for manslaughter? Do you want to imagine what it looks like with government monitoring all pregnancies?

Miscarriage is still common enough that it would overwhelm the legal system.

[SuburbanFarmer]

??????

You disagree?

History disagrees.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicken ... al_history

Interesting. I wasn’t aware of that.

So there is precedent for prosecution of intentional miscarriage.

However, that prenatal fetus has never been counted as a citizen, anywhere.

[SuburbanFarmer]

It's a pretty big "only", GCF. It is precisely because of modern medicine we ought to discard what biblical and other ancient savages thought constitute the beginning of human life.

Based on our unusual experience of the past 50-ish years?

Do our standards revert back, if there’s a civilization all collapse? And how do those standards look to the third world?

That’s a pretty radical change in our moral compass, based on some pretty modern developments.

I barely understand what you're saying there. Deal with the real world, GCF, not with juvenile fantasies about the end of civilization, and how on earth is third world opinions on our change of ethical standards over the years in regards to abortion, relevant to us, you, anyone in the Western world? You do realize that even the third world is taking advantage of advances in modern medicine, right?

You’re proposing that we consider a fetus as a citizen, with all rights implied.

I’m saying that that view is a luxury granted by the latest advances in medicine. There was never a time before that a severely premature baby had even the faintest hope of survival.

I’m also trying to give you the perspective on how incredibly new and unusual that is. And it still isn’t an option in less developed parts of the world.

[nmoore63]

You disagree?

History disagrees.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicken ... al_history

Interesting. I wasn’t aware of that.

So there is precedent for prosecution of intentional miscarriage.

However, that prenatal fetus has never been counted as a citizen, anywhere.

The whole “it’s not human until it leaves the moms body” is a very very modern idea.

Once the fetus quickened, I.e. you can feel the baby move, it’s pretty historical universal that there is another living thing.

How that is values has varied, as with infanticide and child sacrifice.

[Okeefenokee]

You are aware that accidental miscarriage is also a fact of life, correct?

My grandmother had a stillborn baby, that would have been my aunt. I did not “lose” an aunt. I simply didn’t have one.

Keep going. Make up some more hypotheticals to demonstrate what a disgusting person you are.

Not a hypothetical. It’s a true story.

I know I’m trampling in some feelz and speaking scary talk. You don’t have to read it, just remind yourself how Evil I am, that’s fine. Jesus loves you, special boy.

Keep going. Tell us more about how you think it's moral to kill a baby at 40 weeks.

[Speaker to Animals]

The earliest Christian document we have today is from the first century (a generation after the Apostles) which was a catechism. It is known to us as the Didache. It clearly states abortion is murder.

2 Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods, thou shalt not perjure thyself, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not speak evil, thou shalt not cherish a grudge, thou shalt not be double-minded nor double-tongued;

It pretty well identifies the entire democratic party platform as evil. Who could possibly have guessed?

[nmoore63]

The whole nobody talks about miscarriages is a tragedy
My mom had a miscarriage
My wife had a miscarriage

Both dates are still days of mourning in the household.

There are next to no support networks to help people when they go through a miscarriage.

[Speaker to Animals]

The whole nobody talks about miscarriages is a tragedy
My mom had a miscarriage
My wife had a miscarriage

Both dates are still days of mourning in the household.

There are next to no support networks to help people when they go through a miscarriage.

I didn't know. I am really sorry, Nick.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Keep going. Make up some more hypotheticals to demonstrate what a disgusting person you are.

Not a hypothetical. It’s a true story.

I know I’m trampling in some feelz and speaking scary talk. You don’t have to read it, just remind yourself how Evil I am, that’s fine. Jesus loves you, special boy.

Keep going. Tell us more about how you think it's moral to kill a baby at 40 weeks.

Not in a vacuum, no it’s not. And nobody is doing this for funsies- it goes against our deepest instincts.

The entire debate is that there must an allowance for extenuating circumstances.

Really, it’s fascinating to me that “conservatives” are completely and totally against the freedom of the individual on this issue. They demand a state ban on this behavior, yet continue to bray about their other chosen freedoms.