Greece vs Rome, with Boris Johnson and Mary Beard

[Hastur]

I wish I had a prime minister who could debate a renowned historian like this.

Filmed at Central Hall Westminster on 19th November 2015.

On November 19th Intelligence Squared hosted the ultimate clash of civilizations: Greece vs Rome. It was also the ultimate clash of intellectual titans. Boris Johnson, Mayor of London and ardent classicist, made the case for Greece; while Mary Beard, Professor of Classics at Cambridge and redoubtable media star, championed Rome.

As Boris argued, the Greeks got there first: in literature, history, art and philosophy. The Iliad and the Odyssey are the earliest surviving epic poems, the foundations on which European literature was built. The Greek myths – the tales of Oedipus, Heracles and Persephone, to name but a few – contain the archetypal plot elements of hubris and nemesis on which even Hollywood films depend today.

It was in ancient Athens that the birth of democracy took place under the leadership of the great statesman Pericles. And in that political climate with its love of freedom and competition, and passion for argument, the great cultural flourishing of classical Athens occurred: the tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides; the philosophical writings of Plato and Aristotle; and the marble and stone wonders of the Parthenon. Nothing before or since has matched that explosion of talent in a slice of Mediterranean coast smaller than Gloucestershire, with a population the size of Bristol’s.

But as Mary Beard reminded us, Greece eventually lost out to Rome. Little Athens, with its loose-knit, short-lived empire, had nothing to rival Rome’s scale. From Hadrian’s Wall to North Africa, from Spain’s Atlantic coast to Babylon, the Romans stamped a permanent legacy on architecture, language, religion and politics.
Although nothing can detract from the brilliance of Greek literature, the great Roman writers have an immediacy unmatched by any other ancient culture. Virgil’s epic poem the Aeneid, while invoking Homer, conveys an ambiguity towards war that appeals to modern sensibilities; Catullus’s taut analysis of his own complex emotions and the scatological insults he hurls at his rivals make him seem like the kind of clever and amusing friend we all wish we had. These poets reach out to us with voices that make the intervening 2,000 years vanish.

While Athens declined into a forgotten backwater, Rome became the eternal city, home to the greatest classical buildings on earth – the Colosseum, the Pantheon and Trajan’s column. It is thanks to a Roman emperor, Constantine, that Christianity became both the presiding European religion and the force that shaped the Renaissance. Europe is still built in Rome’s image, despite the fall of the Roman Empire.

Some say that if Mary Beard had been in charge, the Roman Empire would never have fallen. Others say Boris is soon to be the Pericles of Downing Street. Who gets your vote?

[Montegriffo]

This is where the comparisons between Boris and the Donald fall down.
Could anyone imagine Trump having an intellectual debate with a renowned historian?
Trump didn't think he'd even heard of a cat 5 hurricane.
Also makes Boris a lot more dangerous...

[StCapps]

This is where the comparisons between Boris and the Donald fall down.
Could anyone imagine Trump having an intellectual debate with a renowned historian?
Trump didn't think he'd even heard of a cat 5 hurricane.
Also makes Boris a lot more dangerous...

Dangerous in what sense?

[Montegriffo]

This is where the comparisons between Boris and the Donald fall down.
Could anyone imagine Trump having an intellectual debate with a renowned historian?
Trump didn't think he'd even heard of a cat 5 hurricane.
Also makes Boris a lot more dangerous...

Dangerous in what sense?

More dangerous to the wellbeing of his nation than Trump.

[StCapps]

This is where the comparisons between Boris and the Donald fall down.
Could anyone imagine Trump having an intellectual debate with a renowned historian?
Trump didn't think he'd even heard of a cat 5 hurricane.
Also makes Boris a lot more dangerous...

Dangerous in what sense?

More dangerous to the wellbeing of his nation than Trump.

Maybe a little, but I don't see either as particularly dangerous in that regard, especially compared to their competition, who are clearly more dangerous than they are. Obvious lesser evils are obvious.

[Hastur]

So a classical education is dangerous? Forbidden knowledge, huh? I don't get it.

[Montegriffo]

So a classical education is dangerous? Forbidden knowledge, huh? I don't get it.

No. An obviously intelligent man has far more potential to be dangerous than an idiot.
Subverting Parliament with the clear intent of taking away debate time from those opposed to a damaging no-deal Brexit for example.
Approving demonstrable lies on the side of a bus in order to mislead the public being another.
Both setting far more dangerous precedents than any of Trump's childish rhetoric.

[Hastur]

So a classical education is dangerous? Forbidden knowledge, huh? I don't get it.

No. An obviously intelligent man has far more potential to be dangerous than an idiot.
Subverting Parliament with the clear intent of taking away debate time from those opposed to a damaging no-deal Brexit for example.
Approving demonstrable lies on the side of a bus in order to mislead the public being another.
Both setting far more dangerous precedents than any of Trump's childish rhetoric.

"If only we could have less intelligent leaders"
Welcome to Sweden, you would fit right in.

[Montegriffo]

So a classical education is dangerous? Forbidden knowledge, huh? I don't get it.

No. An obviously intelligent man has far more potential to be dangerous than an idiot.
Subverting Parliament with the clear intent of taking away debate time from those opposed to a damaging no-deal Brexit for example.
Approving demonstrable lies on the side of a bus in order to mislead the public being another.
Both setting far more dangerous precedents than any of Trump's childish rhetoric.

"If only we could have less intelligent leaders"
Welcome to Sweden, you would fit right in.

I would prefer honest intelligent leadership to dishonest intelligence.
Far easier for a clever man to mislead the public and subvert democracy than for an idiot to do it.

[TheReal_ND]

Boris will make rivers of blood real in my lifefime