Francisco Franco: Spanish Nationalism / Dictatorship

[GloryofGreece]

I had a thread about the new Stalin tome a few days ago and it went no where so here it goes with ol Franco. Generally speaking he's a fascinating dude in the spectrum of dictatorship during the 20th century. He doesn't get any press nowadays or maybe ever really in America. He was leader for a long long time and from what I've read and seen on documentaries/lectures etc. he may have helped his country economically overall especially with controlling inflation for successfully than some other European countries. Obviously he killed many people, was right wing, and did other horrible things much like the Left did during the Civil War years. His side won and its a complicated story like most interesting thoughtful topics.

What's also interesting to me is that I don't think he should really be considered a "Fascist" in the Mussolini/Hitler sense and his regime wasn't imperialistic really (maybe bc it couldn't be) like Japan was etc. The Civil War was nuts like any civil war can be and it was intriguing in many ways. A real idelogocial battle between rural and urban, religious and atheist, right/left etc.

Anyone read any of these books listed below or another one good on the war or spain in general? (I've read Spain in Our Hearts and Orwells Homage)

Franco's International Bridgades
https://www.amazon.com/Francos-Internat ... 517XSM504M

The Victorious Counterrevolution
https://www.amazon.com/Victorious-Count ... 517XSM504M

Franco: A Biography
https://www.amazon.com/Franco-Biography ... HK1TEE23B0

Franco a Personal and Political Biography
https://www.amazon.com/Franco-Political ... HK1TEE23B0

[GloryofGreece]

Anyone know of a good podcast on the Spanish Civil War?

Will Mike Duncan cover it...eventually?

[Speaker to Animals]

The neofolk group Rome has an entire album about the Spanish civil war. It's pretty good.

[GloryofGreece]

Good talk between historians Paul Preston and Ian Kershaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE7FM6eeXgs

[C-Mag]

I really weak on the Spanish Civil-War, I know a few tidbits.

Spain really boned Hitler when they didn't come into WWII on the side of Germany and Italy.

I know that some Americans went to Spain and fought Francos Forces under the name of the American Legion I believe.


BTW
I may do some posting in the Stalin thread. Pretty interesting and influential figure

[Speaker to Animals]

They did sort of help out Germany. It just was not official. Check out the history of the Blue Division.

Lots of "neutral" countries really were not. If the government facilitates their own troops to join a side, then I do not personally consider them neutral.

I think the big problem for Hitler was that he made himself an enemy of the Church, and Franco's government was predicated upon the extermination of communists who had previously waged a campaign of terror and genocide against Catholic Spaniards. Also, the civil war left his nation a wreck he had to rebuild before the war really even got started.

He was aligned with axis only insofar as axis was the primary opposition to the communist threat to our civilization. In my opinion, anyway. I do not think you can truly categorize guys like Franco or even a Pinochet with Hitler and Il Duce.

It's sort of like how you see a broad coalition of ideologies on the resurgent "real" right today. Sure, there are a few actual national socialists in there (Alt-Right), but there are more people who are not that with different ideologies and motivations.

[Speaker to Animals]

I will grant you this:

After what the Soviets did to the Spanish people in that civil war, if I we're a Spaniard I'd consider joining that division too just to have the chance to take it back to Russia.

[GloryofGreece]

They did sort of help out Germany. It just was not official. Check out the history of the Blue Division.

Lots of "neutral" countries really were not. If the government facilitates their own troops to join a side, then I do not personally consider them neutral.

I think the big problem for Hitler was that he made himself an enemy of the Church, and Franco's government was predicated upon the extermination of communists who had previously waged a campaign of terror and genocide against Catholic Spaniards. Also, the civil war left his nation a wreck he had to rebuild before the war really even got started.

He was aligned with axis only insofar as axis was the primary opposition to the communist threat to our civilization. In my opinion, anyway. I do not think you can truly categorize guys like Franco or even a Pinochet with Hitler and Il Duce.

It's sort of like how you see a broad coalition of ideologies on the resurgent "real" right today. Sure, there are a few actual national socialists in there (Alt-Right), but there are more people who are not that with different ideologies and motivations.

That's the real difference between Franco and Fascists/Nazis he was a Catholic and he wanted to give the Church back its property and reinstate the Catholic doctrine over the schools. He consolidated the Right wing factions and after he was really in total power there were no monarchist, catholic, or fascist groups really. I think it was kind of a combination of an enemy of my enemy is my friend thing, his inclination for power personally, doing what had to be done (in his view), and yes fighting Communism and everything the Left wanted to tear down. I know one thing I am way way more sympathetic to his or the "Nationalist" side now than I was say in college (BTW I still don't know much about the Civil War). Its a bit bothersome to say the least that roughly 500K were killed in the so called "White Terror" compared to roughly 170K in the Red Terror (*yes I used the high ranges for both sides) during the Civil War years. But seeing the destruction of Churches, Cathedrals, Monasteries, killing of nuns and priests etc. would I believe lead me to join the Nationalist side over the Republic even with the Republic not being completely Communist and also being fairly elected and me valuing Democracy. Idk it would be tough all around obviously.

[Speaker to Animals]

Doing God's work, cleansing the land of filthy communists.

[GloryofGreece]

I will grant you this:

After what the Soviets did to the Spanish people in that civil war, if I we're a Spaniard I'd consider joining that division too just to have the chance to take it back to Russia.

Pretty dismal fate but hey the true believers and vets from the Civil War continued on to the real enemy. The whole thing is fascinating really especially considering that all the Right leaning regimes were fundamentally racist and thought their own kind was the best. So its a bit fresh that they all helped each other though even though they all thought they were the superior race and culture. Anyway I digress.