The "Human Perception" Thread

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Haumana
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The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Haumana » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:03 am

The idea behind this thread is to act as a collection point for any materials related to understanding the experience of being human. Psychology, Spiritual, Philosophical, Psychological, Psychadelic and anything else that lends itself to providing more clarity, or new questions, regarding the whats, hows and whys of humans do what they do. Navel gazers are always welcome.

I'll kick it off with Twain's "What is Man". Where he posits that man's prime motivator is ultimately a selfish one. Some people really have a hard time seeing themselves as being motivated exclusively by self-interests.

Y.M. Young Man
O.M. Old Man
Y.M. And so we are mere machines! And machines may not boast, nor feel proud of their performance, nor claim personal merit for it, nor applause and praise. It is an infamous doctrine.
O.M. It isn’t a doctrine, it is merely a fact.
Y.M. I suppose, then, there is no more merit in being brave than in being a coward?
O.M. Personal merit? No. A brave man does not create his bravery. He is entitled to no personal credit for possessing it. It is born to him. A baby born with a billion dollars—where is the personal merit in that? A baby born with nothing—where is the personal demerit in that? The one is fawned upon, admired, worshiped, by sycophants, the other is neglected and despised—where is the sense in it?
Y.M. Sometimes a timid man sets himself the task of conquering his cowardice and becoming brave—and succeeds. What do you say to that?
O.M. That it shows the value of training in right directions over training in wrong ones. Inestimably valuable is training, influence, education, in right directions—training one’s self-approbation to elevate its ideals.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/70/70-h/ ... k2H_4_0001

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Haumana
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Haumana » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:08 am

A quick read about the studies conducted by sleight of hand magicians and cognitive scientists that reveal humans' tendencies to choose then rationalize hindsight rather than consider before making a choice.


Choice blindness reveals that not only are our choices often more constrained than we think, but our sense of agency in decision making can be a farce in which we are the first to deceive ourselves. Here we present a few other examples.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... FB_MB_FEAT

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Haumana
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Haumana » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:15 am

The last one for today, I think. An article about a hypothesis of what the nature of the mind really is.
No doubt, the brain plays an incredibly important role. But our mind cannot be confined to what’s inside our skull, or even our body
http://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-you ... yptr=yahoo

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:58 am

Haumana wrote: Some people really have a hard time seeing themselves as being motivated exclusively by self-interests.
Honestly, I don't recall a time when I didn't think that way... I do tend to be more cynical than the people around me though.
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

https://youtu.be/CYbT8-rSqo0

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Haumana
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Haumana » Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:24 am

GrumpyCatFace wrote:
Haumana wrote: Some people really have a hard time seeing themselves as being motivated exclusively by self-interests.
Honestly, I don't recall a time when I didn't think that way... I do tend to be more cynical than the people around me though.
:lol: My wife and I are parsing this out right now. My wife can't recall a time for her either but I can remember fooling myself into thinking otherwise. But considering it further I saw that it was bullshit.

I got her to check out the Hash Pipe Psych section. LOL!


So what do you think about altruism? Another mirage of the ego or can you think of an example?

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:32 am

Haumana wrote:
GrumpyCatFace wrote:
Haumana wrote: Some people really have a hard time seeing themselves as being motivated exclusively by self-interests.
Honestly, I don't recall a time when I didn't think that way... I do tend to be more cynical than the people around me though.
:lol: My wife and I are parsing this out right now. My wife can't recall a time for her either but I can remember fooling myself into thinking otherwise. But considering it further I saw that it was bullshit.

I got her to check out the Hash Pipe Psych section. LOL!


So what do you think about altruism? Another mirage of the ego or can you think of an example?
It does happen. I heard about this guy just last night that sacrificed himself by passing a rescue rope to 5 others in a frozen river and drowned.

The selfish reason would be to avoid the future guilt of someone dying for you. But is that guilt the result of character or training?

Well, knowing what I do now (as an adult) about kids that grow up in favelas, and dumpster babies, and abuse victims, I lean toward the latter. I don't really believe that we possess any innate altruism - it's a product of being raised in a tribe. Without that training, we are just selfish animals.
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

https://youtu.be/CYbT8-rSqo0

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clubgop
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by clubgop » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:17 pm

GrumpyCatFace wrote:
Haumana wrote:
GrumpyCatFace wrote:
Honestly, I don't recall a time when I didn't think that way... I do tend to be more cynical than the people around me though.
:lol: My wife and I are parsing this out right now. My wife can't recall a time for her either but I can remember fooling myself into thinking otherwise. But considering it further I saw that it was bullshit.

I got her to check out the Hash Pipe Psych section. LOL!


So what do you think about altruism? Another mirage of the ego or can you think of an example?
It does happen. I heard about this guy just last night that sacrificed himself by passing a rescue rope to 5 others in a frozen river and drowned.

The selfish reason would be to avoid the future guilt of someone dying for you. But is that guilt the result of character or training?

Well, knowing what I do now (as an adult) about kids that grow up in favelas, and dumpster babies, and abuse victims, I lean toward the latter. I don't really believe that we possess any innate altruism - it's a product of being raised in a tribe. Without that training, we are just selfish animals.
Isn't self defense and self preservation part of being an animal? How exactly will you deny us the most basic means of that willingly without violence?

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:53 pm

If we are incapable of altruism, then I fail to see why or how we could create societies around the concept.

I think it's a relatively new genetic adaptation, possibly dating back only tens of thousands of years. But it's there, just as we are domesticated. It likely will continue dominate humanity as the domestication process continues.

The first adaptation we developed was reciprocal altruism, which conferred a great survival advantage to a kin group. Somehow we transcended that independently in various regions around fifteen thousand years ago and complex societies began to emerge as a result. We can now trust strangers, care about strangers, etc. Nicholas Wade gives several researchers' theories on how it transcended simple reciprocal altruism in his book Beyond the Dawn (highly recommended).

I have begun to believe most of the human condition results from genetically-determined behavior. Even very subtle genetic adaptations can have tremendous impacts on the character of the civilization created and populated by the people with those adaptations.

Culture drives human evolution as well. China created an actual state thousands of years ago (long before us Europeans did so). The bureaucracy of that state was one of the few avenues for advancement, was open to all, ran as a meritocracy, and your admission to those positions depended upon written and oral examination relying heavily on rote memory and recitation of official dogma and arguments. The result after thousands of years of this was that people who were predisposed to extreme conformity, and people with higher intellects, succeeded over their counterparts. The more successful members of society were able to reproduce more children, and thus the arc of the development of the Han people was determined in part by culture.

Altruism in the West has operated in a similar way, though the mechanisms for it's reproductive advantage are not as easily explained. At the kin level, altruism confers immense selective advantage. A kin group with a higher predisposition of kin altruism enjoys enormous advantages in that a single member is willing to sacrifice for the entire clan, who share most of his genetics (including the alleles giving rise to the altruistic behavior).

When you get to a complex society like those of western civilization, the more generalized form of altruism confers benefits to all of society, which increases reproductive rates and life expectancy. Groups like the Knights Hospitaler or Franciscans devoted themselves to establishing hospitals and serving society, which saved many lives and helped others to continue living and reproducing. At least some of the resulting children also shared the alleles for this kind of behavior. It's not as strong as the selective advantages in kin altruism, but it still exists at a racial level.

I think the trajectory of this adaptation is global. People already have begun to transcend even societal altruism to create something global. Two thousand years of Christian orthodoxy likely played a huge role in this development. The future I think will involve an even more generalized altruism regarding the entire species as a whole and the planet on which we live (which we already see developing). Here I don't mean the ideological nonsense of the greens, but genuine concern by people for the future of mankind itself and of our planet. If you went back even a century, such notions would have been inconceivable, even though rationally most people could well see the need for it.

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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by TheReal_ND » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:02 pm

Good post but I think you skipped the part where white people all over the world start to become altruistic for each other. Something I see happening all the time. It's almost daily I see someone posting they will refuse to have another "brother war" (white on white,) with the likes of Russia or anyone else.

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Haumana
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Re: The "Human Perception" Thread

Post by Haumana » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:04 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote: Nicholas Wade gives several researchers' theories on how it transcended simple reciprocal altruism in his book Beyond the Dawn (highly recommended).
Thanks for both the thoughtful contribution and the book recommendation. I will check it out.