Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[The Conservative]

Truth be told, the Soviets were probably more brutal an inhuman than the Nazi's. Our popular history doesn't remember it that way. The Danes going neutral in WWII was probably the best decision by the government for it's citizens.

No. Just no.

Our popular history actually makes the Germans seem pretty nice, all things considered. Keep in mind, we keep thinking of "nazi war crimes", not "German war crimes". This was an effort by the western allies and western Germany to distance Germany from their responsibility with nazism. Because the Soviet Union was our new enemy, and Western Germany our new friends. And the propaganda took hold, and now many people honestly believe Germany was the lesser of two evils. They were one of two evils, that is true, but they were so far from the lesser evil as you could get. This "the germans weren't that bad"-propaganda effort was done by the Soviets too, because they too had Eastern Germany as their new ally. As a consequence, these propaganda efforts have given the general public a pretty limited understanding of the true nature of Germany during the war. Holocaust is hammered into us so much we think this was pretty much the only bad thing Germany did.

Read up on the hunger plan. It makes the Holodomor look like a misdemeanor in comparison. If Germany had succeeded in Barborossa, they would've starved 20-30 million civilians. In comparison, the Soviet Union won, and occupied the German territories, and about a million german died, both from western allied mismanagement, and to a larger extent combination of famine and mismanagement from the Soviet Union.

You had a better chance to survive the war as a German soldier captured in the battle of Stalingrad, than as a Soviet soldier captured during the first year of the war. (And those were the germans that had the worst odds). The only reason they kept Soviet soldiers alive after the first year, was because they needed their manpower in the war industry.


I see this trend of "oh the Soviet Union were the real bad guys". And it's all based on some pop history fandom of Soviet atrocities, without going into the same depth of the German atrocities. Yes, the Soviets were bad, horrible, and should never happen again, and they did awful things. And yes, we don't learn enough about it in school. But damn if the same is true for the common knowledge about German atrocities during the war too. People have a limited knowledge of the Holocaust, and call it quits there. But there's more, there's way more. Hunger plan, aktion t4, and many, many more.

Soviet won, and there's still a Germany, and there's still German people around. But there wouldn't be a living slav west of the Urals ten years later if Germany won, and there would be no Russia.
The Germans did more damage in two years, than the Soviet Union did in ten. And yes, the Soviet Union lasted far longer, and caused more deaths due to its longevity. But you better believe Germany would've caused FAR more deaths if it actually managed to succeed. They would've used their victory to ramp up the killing, not slow it down.

Hitler's Germany killed about 12 Million people... Stalin's Russia killed over 20 Million... numbers reached up to 60 Million in some reports...

[SuburbanFarmer]

What’s 40 million people, between friends?

They were both abominations. I have no doubt that the Nazis would have inflicted equal or greater human suffering, given enough time.

But you also have to consider the total suffering that they brought about in WW2.

[Otern]

Hitler's Germany killed about 12 Million people... Stalin's Russia killed over 20 Million... numbers reached up to 60 Million in some reports...

The holocaust was six million, and the starvation of POWs was another five. Then we haven't taken into account the number of deaths from the war itself. Hitler's Germany killed way more than 12 million people. And they did it in a very short time.

Stalin's Soviet have killed a lot of people too. Holodomor: 3,3-7,5 million. Great purge: 600 000 to 1200 000. And we get a lot more if we add the famines that came as a result of mismanagement. And the forced resettlement programs, appropriation of farms, and many more. In total, we could assume around 4-9 million people died as a cause of Stalin. And that's absolutely insane, and not a lot of people are aware of it. The absolutely highest number people talk about are 20 million, but then famines that really weren't the fault of the high command comes in. (No, not the Holodomor, that was really caused by Stalin, but the one in 1932 is a lot more nuanced, same with the one in 1947).

But Hitler's Germany still wins the asshole category. Six million jews, everyone knows that. But then there were 3,5 Soviet POWs starved to death. Just these two events, and Hitler is taking the lead on Stalin. And we haven't really added in enforced mass starvation starvation of civilians, or the death toll of the war in general yet.

Hitler did in three year, what Stalin used thirty to do. And there's no indication he would've stepped of the gas pedal if he'd gotten more years, quite the opposite.

[heydaralon]

Truth be told, the Soviets were probably more brutal an inhuman than the Nazi's. Our popular history doesn't remember it that way. The Danes going neutral in WWII was probably the best decision by the government for it's citizens.

No. Just no.

Our popular history actually makes the Germans seem pretty nice, all things considered. Keep in mind, we keep thinking of "nazi war crimes", not "German war crimes". This was an effort by the western allies and western Germany to distance Germany from their responsibility with nazism. Because the Soviet Union was our new enemy, and Western Germany our new friends. And the propaganda took hold, and now many people honestly believe Germany was the lesser of two evils. They were one of two evils, that is true, but they were so far from the lesser evil as you could get. This "the germans weren't that bad"-propaganda effort was done by the Soviets too, because they too had Eastern Germany as their new ally. As a consequence, these propaganda efforts have given the general public a pretty limited understanding of the true nature of Germany during the war. Holocaust is hammered into us so much we think this was pretty much the only bad thing Germany did.

Read up on the hunger plan. It makes the Holodomor look like a misdemeanor in comparison. If Germany had succeeded in Barborossa, they would've starved 20-30 million civilians. In comparison, the Soviet Union won, and occupied the German territories, and about a million german died, both from western allied mismanagement, and to a larger extent combination of famine and mismanagement from the Soviet Union.

You had a better chance to survive the war as a German soldier captured in the battle of Stalingrad, than as a Soviet soldier captured during the first year of the war. (And those were the germans that had the worst odds). The only reason they kept Soviet soldiers alive after the first year, was because they needed their manpower in the war industry.


I see this trend of "oh the Soviet Union were the real bad guys". And it's all based on some pop history fandom of Soviet atrocities, without going into the same depth of the German atrocities. Yes, the Soviets were bad, horrible, and should never happen again, and they did awful things. And yes, we don't learn enough about it in school. But damn if the same is true for the common knowledge about German atrocities during the war too. People have a limited knowledge of the Holocaust, and call it quits there. But there's more, there's way more. Hunger plan, aktion t4, and many, many more.

Soviet won, and there's still a Germany, and there's still German people around. But there wouldn't be a living slav west of the Urals ten years later if Germany won, and there would be no Russia.
The Germans did more damage in two years, than the Soviet Union did in ten. And yes, the Soviet Union lasted far longer, and caused more deaths due to its longevity. But you better believe Germany would've caused FAR more deaths if it actually managed to succeed. They would've used their victory to ramp up the killing, not slow it down.

Read about the Great Leap Forward. It killed at least twice the 20 million figure you gave. And that is just the starving. Millions of others died from brutality, torture and rape inflicted on them by the Communists. Read about Tito as well. I get that you are European and you have a soft spot for Stalin and Mao but you should also do some research. Also, I love how millions of Ukrainians starving to death is a misdeamenor. I'm sure watching your child starve in front of your eyes, and watching your family eat its flesh is far easier under a Soviet system than a National Socialist system.

[heydaralon]

Hitler's Germany killed about 12 Million people... Stalin's Russia killed over 20 Million... numbers reached up to 60 Million in some reports...

The holocaust was six million, and the starvation of POWs was another five. Then we haven't taken into account the number of deaths from the war itself. Hitler's Germany killed way more than 12 million people. And they did it in a very short time.

Stalin's Soviet have killed a lot of people too. Holodomor: 3,3-7,5 million. Great purge: 600 000 to 1200 000. And we get a lot more if we add the famines that came as a result of mismanagement. And the forced resettlement programs, appropriation of farms, and many more. In total, we could assume around 4-9 million people died as a cause of Stalin. And that's absolutely insane, and not a lot of people are aware of it. The absolutely highest number people talk about are 20 million, but then famines that really weren't the fault of the high command comes in. (No, not the Holodomor, that was really caused by Stalin, but the one in 1932 is a lot more nuanced, same with the one in 1947).

But Hitler's Germany still wins the asshole category. Six million jews, everyone knows that. But then there were 3,5 Soviet POWs starved to death. Just these two events, and Hitler is taking the lead on Stalin. And we haven't really added in enforced mass starvation starvation of civilians, or the death toll of the war in general yet.

Hitler did in three year, what Stalin used thirty to do. And there's no indication he would've stepped of the gas pedal if he'd gotten more years, quite the opposite.

Lol at mismanagement. That is one of those academic revisionist terms. Even on here, we are more well versed about atrocities and so forth, but The Soviet Union lost 15 million people from the Civil War and subsequent famine. Not the Ukrainian one that followed. I'm talking about the period from 1918-1922. 15 million people. Russia was begging for grain from international capitalist countries and while these grain shipments were coming in, it was exporting its own grain for sale. Mao did the same thing while tens of millions of his own people died. To be fair, Typhus also killed a lot of peasants during this time too, but this war during the Civil War, when the Cheka was sending units into town and seizing basically all the grain from the already dirt poor peasants, and executing any and all resistance. They actually performed a genocide on the Don Cossacks, killing something like 70% of them. They would also take family members hostage to ensure compliance. It was not a picnic or misdemeanor compared to Hitler. That's not downplaying anything he did, I just think you need to get the facts straight a bit. All this I mentioned happened before Stalin was running the show btw.

I don't know where this idea that National Socialism is more evil than Communism started (probably from war propaganda and Commie academics in the West), but it is a destructive myth that needs to stop.

[Otern]

Read about the Great Leap Forward. It killed at least twice the 20 million figure you gave. And that is just the starving. Millions of others died from brutality, torture and rape inflicted on them by the Communists. Read about Tito as well. I get that you are European and you have a soft spot for Stalin and Mao but you should also do some research. Also, I love how millions of Ukrainians starving to death is a misdeamenor. I'm sure watching your child starve in front of your eyes, and watching your family eat its flesh is far easier under a Soviet system than a National Socialist system.

I'm not making a point about communism in general, just the comparison of Stalin and Hitler. Mao is not Stalin. He was a scumbag too, but more of the talentless hack with way too much power, not a sociopathic murderer like Stalin.

I don't have a soft spot for Mao or Stalin. They're some of the worst people to have ever existed. I don't think you got what I wrote here. Holodomor was awful, and people on this forum seem to be aware of it. But you're as unaware of the other nazi atrocities, apart from the Holocaust, as you deem the general public to be about the atrocities of the commies.

And I suggest you read up on the Holodomor too, it's not as black and white as you think. Ukrainians were the primary victims, but lots of russians died too. It happened in the black earth area between Russia and Ukraine. The hunger plan would've killed way more, if Germany could see it through, because it had the goal to kill everyone in that area.

[heydaralon]

Otern: you said people have a limited knowledge of the Holocaust and over emphasize the Soviets. In the US, the opposite happens. The holocaust is taught every year, and Soviet atrocities are glossed over. In fact, there are many Bernie Sanders types and academics who actually attempt to whitewash Stalin, as well as many Scandinavians. Ask a random US citizen about Holdomor and they would give you a blank stare. Ask them about Anne Frank or Auschwitz and they will immediately know what you mean. I'm not saying that we shouldn't learn about Hitler or the holocaust. They are heinous events, and should be taught, I just think we should also teach the public about Communist mass killings as well, which went on far longer and had a far higher body count, even if it is politically inconvenient.

[Otern]

Lol at mismanagement. That is one of those academic revisionist terms. Even on here, we are more well versed about atrocities and so forth, but The Soviet Union lost 15 million people from the Civil War and subsequent famine. Not the Ukrainian one that followed. I'm talking about the period from 1918-1922. 15 million people. Russia was begging for grain from international capitalist countries and while these grain shipments were coming in, it was exporting its own grain for sale. Mao did the same thing while tens of millions of his own people died. To be fair, Typhus also killed a lot of peasants during this time too, but this war during the Civil War, when the Cheka was sending units into town and seizing basically all the grain from the already dirt poor peasants, and executing any and all resistance. They actually performed a genocide on the Don Cossacks, killing something like 70% of them. They would also take family members hostage to ensure compliance. It was not a picnic or misdemeanor compared to Hitler. That's not downplaying anything he did, I just think you need to get the facts straight a bit. All this I mentioned happened before Stalin was running the show btw.

I don't know where this idea that National Socialism is more evil than Communism started (probably from war propaganda and Commie academics in the West), but it is a destructive myth that needs to stop.

Again, read what I wrote. 1918-1922 was not Stalin.

I'm not making a point for communism here btw. Just that Hitler's nazism was way worse than anything else, when you take into account how limited area it had, and limited timespan. Khmer Rouge were on the level of nazi germany, but that's about it.

[Otern]

Otern: you said people have a limited knowledge of the Holocaust and over emphasize the Soviets. In the US, the opposite happens. The holocaust is taught every year, and Soviet atrocities are glossed over.

No. I said people have a limited knowledge about the OTHER atrocities of the nazis.

I think ramming the Holocaust down our throats makes a lot of us think this was the only thing they did.

I never said we over emphasize the Soviet atrocities. I think we generally don't know about it as much we do about the Holocaust. But again, nazi germany is more than the Holocaust.

To keep it simple: we have too much focus on the Holocaust in WW2, and too little about other german atrocities. When it comes to Soviet atrocities, I actually think people know a lot. In general people I know tend to know about the Holodomor, the great purge, and a lot of other communist atrocities in and outside the soviet union. But when it comes to Germany it's just "The Holocaust", and nothing else.

[heydaralon]

Read about the Great Leap Forward. It killed at least twice the 20 million figure you gave. And that is just the starving. Millions of others died from brutality, torture and rape inflicted on them by the Communists. Read about Tito as well. I get that you are European and you have a soft spot for Stalin and Mao but you should also do some research. Also, I love how millions of Ukrainians starving to death is a misdeamenor. I'm sure watching your child starve in front of your eyes, and watching your family eat its flesh is far easier under a Soviet system than a National Socialist system.

I'm not making a point about communism in general, just the comparison of Stalin and Hitler. Mao is not Stalin. He was a scumbag too, but more of the talentless hack with way too much power, not a sociopathic murderer like Stalin.

I don't have a soft spot for Mao or Stalin. They're some of the worst people to have ever existed. I don't think you got what I wrote here. Holodomor was awful, and people on this forum seem to be aware of it. But you're as unaware of the other nazi atrocities, apart from the Holocaust, as you deem the general public to be about the atrocities of the commies.

And I suggest you read up on the Holodomor too, it's not as black and white as you think. Ukrainians were the primary victims, but lots of russians died too. It happened in the black earth area between Russia and Ukraine. The hunger plan would've killed way more, if Germany could see it through, because it had the goal to kill everyone in that area.

Mao was at least as evil as Stalin. Again, this is that weird revisionist history. Mao was exporting grain (as tens of millions were starving), regimenting and monitoring every aspect of his citizens lives, told his citizens to gorge themselves and throw out food right before the famine happened, and keeping every grain of rice under local govt lock and key (and having parents kill their own toddlers with iron bars if they so much as hid a grian of rice) while this famine occured. He had local spies and people from the central govt taking extensive notes on the countryside while the famine took place. Liu Shaoqi told mao and the party all about it, as did many many others. Mao made remarks such as "If half the population starves, the other half will eat their fill." 48 million civilians died during this period of less than 4 years (is that more than the amount Hitler killed? Idk off the top of my head tell me) while this guy knew all about it and instituted these policies, and you are just dismissing him as a "talentless hack with way too much power." I would describe Michael Bay getting creative control over the next Transformers movie this way, not a person who killed 70 million of his own people during his rule. This dude was diabolical and deliberate, and I don't see how he doesn't at least tie in first place for most evil person ever with Stalin.


Also, I have read quite a bit about the Nazis. I know about their collaboration with the Croats and Ustache, the Jacenovac serb death camp (probably spelled wrong) camp, the quarter million to 400,000 jews killed by Romania at Hitler's behest. The camps in Poland, the massacres in Ukraine etc. That shit was pure depraved evil, but in terms of numbers, it doesn't come close to Stalin or Mao. I think after a certain point you cannot quantify evil, so at best you can say they are equally bad, but many historians like Timothy Snyder have attempted to downplay Stalin and Soviet atrocities (for reasons???) and to me that is as dishonest as trying to downplay the holocaust. Communism lasted far longer than National Socialism, and even taking the worst case numbers you mentioned for lebensraum, killed way less.