Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

[Speaker to Animals]

I didn't say VAT. You tax at consumption. VAT tries to tax everything multiple times.

[DBTrek]

I know if I were corporation I'd definitely stick around to subsidize a bunch of non-productive US citizens so that I could get a fraction of that investment back when a small number of those people bought my good or service. That sounds highly sustainable.


Not even worth arguing really, since as I pointed out there is no general AI boogeyman at the door, and as you pointed out "We don't even have a sufficiently advanced economy in the US to transition to a UBI".

So really it boils down to "In my imaginary boogey-man world the government has to take care of us all. But that's only in the future, when we have a magical futuristic economy that produces wealth from apathy."

Putin is right, Your lives must be boring.

[Speaker to Animals]

If you were a corporation, you wouldn't subsidize anything in the system I just described. I guess you didn't read it. No surprises there.

[DBTrek]

If you were a corporation, you wouldn't subsidize anything in the system I just described. I guess you didn't read it. No surprises there.

Right . . . the government would just hand out money for people to live, and then it would take a fraction back in "consumption tax", and then next month hand out . . . oh wait . . . you didn't take back enough in consumption taxes to re-issue the second month of UIB checks.
Damn.
Your system can't even survive to a second iteration.

Good thing we're just spit-balling hypotheticals here.

So, Dr. Y, satiated?
You've seen this thing run it's cours now, or what?

[Speaker to Animals]

If you were a corporation, you wouldn't subsidize anything in the system I just described. I guess you didn't read it. No surprises there.

Right . . . the government would just hand out money for people to live, and then it would take a fraction back in "consumption tax", and then next month hand out . . . oh wait . . . you didn't take back enough in consumption taxes to re-issue the second month of UIB checks.
Damn.
Your system can't even survive to a second iteration.

Good thing we're just spit-balling hypotheticals here.

So, Dr. Y, satiated?
You've seen this thing run it's cours now, or what?

You're being ridiculous. I am talking about a system that would get us between the period where maybe half the population cannot find work and a post-scarcity society. If there were no jobs available at all, then that's post-scarcity. I doubt we will need even a UBI at that point.

[Fife]

Nanoscale 3-D printers will have us all swimming in lotus leaves and Soylent Green soon enough.

Won't even need an EBT card for that stuff.

[C-Mag]

There are a number of "solutions," I suppose. I'll take the Zen approach of doing nothing over a UBI any old day, just because UBI is easy for me to scrap.

First, what is the legal authority for UBI? Seems like a simply academic discussion unless there is some IRL legitimate way to implement such a program.

Second, the Luddite reflexive position regarding automation is contrary to history and observable human behavior. Automation creates more products, not more leisure time. As much as starry-eyed dreamers have loved to wax poetic about grown ups sitting around singing folk songs all day for centuries, it turns out people would rather have pick-up trucks, cheeseburgers, clean drinking water, computers, iPhones, and medication.

Third, is working a moral burden? (what's wrong with requiring people to work for their supper rather than raiding your fridge?) And is an unconditional income something that able-bodied people morally deserve?

I think the threat of moral injury is the greatest risk. Economically, I don't know that much would change, at the bottom line. But I don't see taking Generation Z and turning it into a nation of video gamers 24/7 is doing them much of a favor. (Also, want to see what REAL income inequality looks like? Just wait until there is a default UBI.)

H/T, I missed that discussion. I see two main things we need to do to improve the situation.

I think the answers start need to start at home. Parents need to instill a work ethic and a drive to work in their children. Gen-X and the Boomers did a pretty shitty job of this and it's biting us in the ass.

Second, we have to change the discussion on how this country values skill, knowledge and education. Today, after a 50 year onslaught of valuing only higher education as metric of intelligence and skill is killing us. Victor Davis Hanson and Mike Rowe have been in the lead on this subject. We need to value all workers, and recognize the skill and intelligence required to do trades is often every bit demanding as a Phd -ologist.

Your first point is the same old moral argument nonsense that StA loves to push. We didn't suddenly have a cultural moral breakdown that created our problems. People are responding to incentives, as they always have and should.

You can see this in the article - if it's cheaper to stay home, then they will. This is rational behavior, not slaving 40 hours away from home for no benefit.

I fully agree with your second point though - we have demonized trade work in this country, and it's appalling. You can thank the media for a part in this, and a dogmatic hangover from the Boomers.

Well, we Agree on most of it. But BroGrump, you are really wrong to dismiss the role of parents instilling a Work Ethic. For me it's a simple experience thing. I've dealt with a lot of young people starting careers and working. All of them with the same incentives and there is an extreme difference between kids who worked hard growing up and the kids who never worked before.

[SuburbanFarmer]

H/T, I missed that discussion. I see two main things we need to do to improve the situation.

I think the answers start need to start at home. Parents need to instill a work ethic and a drive to work in their children. Gen-X and the Boomers did a pretty shitty job of this and it's biting us in the ass.

Second, we have to change the discussion on how this country values skill, knowledge and education. Today, after a 50 year onslaught of valuing only higher education as metric of intelligence and skill is killing us. Victor Davis Hanson and Mike Rowe have been in the lead on this subject. We need to value all workers, and recognize the skill and intelligence required to do trades is often every bit demanding as a Phd -ologist.

Your first point is the same old moral argument nonsense that StA loves to push. We didn't suddenly have a cultural moral breakdown that created our problems. People are responding to incentives, as they always have and should.

You can see this in the article - if it's cheaper to stay home, then they will. This is rational behavior, not slaving 40 hours away from home for no benefit.

I fully agree with your second point though - we have demonized trade work in this country, and it's appalling. You can thank the media for a part in this, and a dogmatic hangover from the Boomers.

Well, we Agree on most of it. But BroGrump, you are really wrong to dismiss the role of parents instilling a Work Ethic. For me it's a simple experience thing. I've dealt with a lot of young people starting careers and working. All of them with the same incentives and there is an extreme difference between kids who worked hard growing up and the kids who never worked before.

Oh absolutely. I'm not going to argue for bad parenting. I just disagree that our entire culture is in some kind of decline because "those damn kids", or a loss of Godly Values. It's about economics, like everything else.

[Fife]

Whatever the state subsidizes, we will get more of.

I'm doubtful of the prospects of subsidizing freeloading.

[DBTrek]

Whatever the state subsidizes, we will get more of.

I'm doubtful of the prospects of subsidizing freeloading.

Dude, it's the new and improved Communism.
All the benefits of being a Marxist with none of the responsibility.
Get on board.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" doesn't work.
So the millennials and StA are opting for "To each according to his need" - fuck the rest of it.

That shit is going to be EPIC.
You'll see.
I mean, after the magic economy kicks in.