Does Anyone Really Believe in Liberty?

[Martin Hash]

You just said you haven’t utilized your liberty. I know nothing about the nepotistic practices of the people around you.

Mice scurrying around in a pizza parlor or laundromat isn’t liberty either. Both nepotistic & Commies need drones.

When did I say I haven't utilized my liberty?

When you explained how LLCs worked.

[Martin Hash]

What kind of opportunity is driving without a license affording you. What’s the opportunity in anarchy?

What kind of opportunity is doing 'X' without bureaucratic permission affording you?
Like - all of it.

It's affording you all of the opportunity.
Having to ask permission to do 'X', that's where opportunity is getting restricted, and becoming incumbent upon pleasing others.

Freedom is NOT the same as opportunity. You have all the freedom possible alone on a desert island but no liberty.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

You just said you haven’t utilized your liberty. I know nothing about the nepotistic practices of the people around you.

Mice scurrying around in a pizza parlor or laundromat isn’t liberty either. Both nepotistic & Commies need drones.

When did I say I haven't utilized my liberty?

When you explained how LLCs worked.

I'm still not following.

[DBTrek]

Freedom is NOT the same as opportunity. You have all the freedom possible alone on a desert island but no liberty.

I realize the words have separate definitions. But if you must petition the government to "advance or progress" (aka utilize opportunity) then you don't have liberty. The government has liberty, and doles it out to whomever they arbitrarily choose.

So if you want personal liberty, you need personal freedom to exercise and pursue the opportunities that arise.
On a deserted Island you have plenty of liberty. You're FREE to utilize everything on or around the island to improve your circumstances however you wish.

[DBTrek]

Liberty = Freedom X Opportunity

If the government isn't the sole supplier of Freedom or Opportunity - then it would seem your own equation renders them unnecessary for liberty.

[Martin Hash]

I’m done discussing this topic. Nobody’s going to agree with me and it doesn’t make any difference now anyway. Define liberty however you want: ignore me.

[Martin Hash]

I’ve never convinced anyone of anything anyway. It’s one of things that makes me unique.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Define liberty however you want

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with your freedom x opportunity = liberty definition.

I think DB is arguing against freedom x opportunity + government= liberty, and I am arguing with freedom x opportunity + guaranteed success = liberty

Personally, I think the original definition is awesome. I just think it still exists. *shrug*

[DBTrek]

Define liberty however you want

I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with your freedom x opportunity = liberty definition.

I think DB is arguing against freedom x opportunity + government= liberty, and I am arguing with freedom x opportunity + guaranteed success = liberty

That's where I'm at. I see the purpose of government. I see the value of government, insofar as it meets its purpose without over reaching (which seldom happens). But I don't see how the government acting as opportunity gatekeepers translates into more liberty.

But, I'm also good with dropping it if folks are tired of the subject. It's just one of the few conversations where the forum isn't on the same page, so it seemed worthy of discussing for awhile.

[C-Mag]

Theories are good, but this is our reality