Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

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Fife
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by Fife » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:16 am

C-Mag wrote:
doc_loliday wrote:Let's focus on getting people educated, so they can compete in the economy.

And again, the economy runs on the greed of people working who really don't want to be there. I don't think it will take much to convince them to stop trying or to not try at all.

The primary problem is not Education or access to Education............... the main problem is personal drive and incentive.
This is what I was driving at yesterday in the MW thread that died out for this one. viewtopic.php?p=67968#p67968
Fife wrote:
Zlaxer wrote:
Fife wrote:+1 (except for the UBI part; and any coercive profit-sharing as ersatz minimum wage)

Very (small-l) libertarian (gasp).

:goteam:
What's your solution to automation if not ubi?
There are a number of "solutions," I suppose. I'll take the Zen approach of doing nothing over a UBI any old day, just because UBI is easy for me to scrap.

First, what is the legal authority for UBI? Seems like a simply academic discussion unless there is some IRL legitimate way to implement such a program.

Second, the Luddite reflexive position regarding automation is contrary to history and observable human behavior. Automation creates more products, not more leisure time. As much as starry-eyed dreamers have loved to wax poetic about grown ups sitting around singing folk songs all day for centuries, it turns out people would rather have pick-up trucks, cheeseburgers, clean drinking water, computers, iPhones, and medication.

Third, is working a moral burden? (what's wrong with requiring people to work for their supper rather than raiding your fridge?) And is an unconditional income something that able-bodied people morally deserve?

I think the threat of moral injury is the greatest risk. Economically, I don't know that much would change, at the bottom line. But I don't see taking Generation Z and turning it into a nation of video gamers 24/7 is doing them much of a favor. (Also, want to see what REAL income inequality looks like? Just wait until there is a default UBI.)

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:17 am

doc_loliday wrote:Speaking of plumbers, the rates they are charge are pretty high. I just checked and the community college in my area offers 4 courses dealing with plumbing. There aren't jobs like there used to be, where you could just show up and make money, there are jobs for those that are willing to try.

But if you really want to go the engineering route, college is free if you're poor, and you could sacrifice the next 4-10 years to get that if you wanted.

College is not free, and most college graduates are stuck in debt and working in jobs that don't need college education.

Not everybody is cut out for STEM. Not even most people.

Again, disability rolls are skyrocketing for a reason, people, and it's not because people keep falling down.

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doc_loliday
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by doc_loliday » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:18 am

C-Mag wrote:
doc_loliday wrote:Let's focus on getting people educated, so they can compete in the economy.

And again, the economy runs on the greed of people working who really don't want to be there. I don't think it will take much to convince them to stop trying or to not try at all.

The primary problem is not Education or access to Education............... the main problem is personal drive and incentive.
That's my point. Let's begin pointing that out to students (and adults). The tools are there, they need to be used. I don't blame the kids. Nobody talked to me about work. It was just "go to college" and "do what you love and you'll make money". I think we ought to start talking to kids about what college can and can't do. Moreover, we should stop demonizing those who don't go.

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doc_loliday
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by doc_loliday » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:22 am

Speaker to Animals wrote: College is not free, and most college graduates are stuck in debt and working in jobs that don't need college education.

Not everybody is cut out for STEM. Not even most people.
College is free if you're poor, and if you're not you poor, you can take out loans. And Just so were clear, you shouldn't take out loans to get a college degree if that degree isn't going to get you a job. It's not like there are doctors that just can't find work. Look, I don't blame the kids who were drilled to take out loans for useless degrees, but we can start now. Anyway, I disagree that most people aren't cut out for x type of work. Not everyone can do stem, but many people can work with their brains, if they have the ambition to do so. And for those that simply can't, the trades are in demand, there's good money to be made. Let's fill all those jobs first.
Last edited by doc_loliday on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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DBTrek
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by DBTrek » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:22 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:You are flailing.
:lol:

That must be why I've addressed your claims with facts and links, revealed that the problem you're trying to solve is a purely imaginary one (no generalized AI exists), and spoken against the immorality and sustainability of UIB, while you're responded with one line dismissals.

Clearly I'm the one out of my depth here.
Apologies.
"Hey varmints, don't mess with a guy that's riding a buffalo"

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doc_loliday
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by doc_loliday » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:31 am

Anyone into economics? A couple of companies in my city have a lot of trouble filling their (agricultural) commodities trader positions. Starts at over 100k.

It's an anecdote, but those articles you read where companies can't fill the positions they have should looked at possible sources of income for the unemployed. Economics isn't as hard as a stem career, but it's an example of "brain work" that could be achieved with some sacrifice. I would encourage those that are struggling to sit down, find what interests them and look for jobs that are in demand, if that doesn't work, look into work that you can tolerate, and if that doesn't work, just pick something you are capable of, and bust your ass until you get it.

Then you too can join the ranks of people that make money, but hate their jobs. :lol:

Ph64
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by Ph64 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:36 am

doc_loliday wrote:It's not like there are doctors that just can't find work.
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/ques ... s-salaries

http://wallstreetpit.com/5769-the-medic ... s-so-high/

Both my neighbors are doctors from Bolivia (?IIRC, they moved in a year ago), neither can work as doctors in the US.

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C-Mag
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by C-Mag » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:38 am

Fife wrote:
There are a number of "solutions," I suppose. I'll take the Zen approach of doing nothing over a UBI any old day, just because UBI is easy for me to scrap.

First, what is the legal authority for UBI? Seems like a simply academic discussion unless there is some IRL legitimate way to implement such a program.

Second, the Luddite reflexive position regarding automation is contrary to history and observable human behavior. Automation creates more products, not more leisure time. As much as starry-eyed dreamers have loved to wax poetic about grown ups sitting around singing folk songs all day for centuries, it turns out people would rather have pick-up trucks, cheeseburgers, clean drinking water, computers, iPhones, and medication.

Third, is working a moral burden? (what's wrong with requiring people to work for their supper rather than raiding your fridge?) And is an unconditional income something that able-bodied people morally deserve?

I think the threat of moral injury is the greatest risk. Economically, I don't know that much would change, at the bottom line. But I don't see taking Generation Z and turning it into a nation of video gamers 24/7 is doing them much of a favor. (Also, want to see what REAL income inequality looks like? Just wait until there is a default UBI.)
H/T, I missed that discussion. I see two main things we need to do to improve the situation.

I think the answers start need to start at home. Parents need to instill a work ethic and a drive to work in their children. Gen-X and the Boomers did a pretty shitty job of this and it's biting us in the ass.

Second, we have to change the discussion on how this country values skill, knowledge and education. Today, after a 50 year onslaught of valuing only higher education as metric of intelligence and skill is killing us. Victor Davis Hanson and Mike Rowe have been in the lead on this subject. We need to value all workers, and recognize the skill and intelligence required to do trades is often every bit demanding as a Phd -ologist.
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doc_loliday
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by doc_loliday » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:41 am

Ph64 wrote:
Both my neighbors are doctors from Bolivia (?IIRC, they moved in a year ago), neither can work as doctors in the US.

Well I guess they shouldn't try. Or, they should, because they will find work. Doctors and surgeons have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country, anecdotes notwithstanding, less than 1% are unemployed. Also, I assume they are licensed and haven't been busted trading oxycontin for sexual favors.

brewster
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Re: Let's Riff on the next Tech/Social Revolution

Post by brewster » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:03 am

The much of the confusion in the stats lies in the difference between the Labor Participation rate, what % of people are working,a dn unemployment, what % of people who want to work are working. This graphic point out the anomaly that when Unemployment is low the LFP should be going up not down. Our dependent population is growing.

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