Earth matters

[StCapps]

Just to be clear, the Obama Administration only banned Neonicotinoid use in "Wildlife Refuges"

They didn't ban it for agricultural use, so this change doesn't make much of a difference to the bees.

The Neonicotinoids leech into everything from the farmer's fields, it's not coming from "Wildlife Refuges"

Are there better pesticide alternatives, both economically and environmentally? If anyone actually knows, and doesn't just take the Obama Admin EPA's word for it, enlighten me, I'm genuinely curious.

[Speaker to Animals]

There is a bill right now waiting in Congress to ban the chemicals in the US as they are in Europe and elsewhere. We just have to wait for that to come through. These kinds of chemicals are really bad news for agriculture. They help a few farmers who grow things like soy beans and maize, but have the potential to devastate many billions of dollars worth of other crops, including almonds, tomatoes, etc.

We should definitely not use pesticides that kill off pollinators.

The other aspect of this type of problem is that the burden of proof is too often reversed. The pesticide companies should have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that these chemicals are not dangerous to the environment and to humans, not the other way around.

[StCapps]

There is a bill right now waiting in Congress to ban the chemicals in the US as they are in Europe and elsewhere. We just have to wait for that to come through. These kinds of chemicals are really bad news for agriculture. They help a few farmers who grow things like soy beans and maize, but have the potential to devastate many billions of dollars worth of other crops, including almonds, tomatoes, etc.

We should definitely not use pesticides that kill off pollinators.

The other aspect of this type of problem is that the burden of proof is too often reversed. The pesticide companies should have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that these chemicals are not dangerous to the environment and to humans, not the other way around.

Nope. I air on the side of the free market, not government regulation. Show me the better alternatives, or shut the fuck up with your knee-jerk banning. Show your government bans actually help the bees and don't damage the rest of the food supply, and I'm on board, if you can't even do that, fuck off.

[brewster]

What a fucking idiot. We hire the guy to deal with the corruption and the immigration problems. He proceeds to do almost nothing but neocuckery from day one.

I like eating. Try not to wipe out the pollinating bees in North America you fucking morons.

But, but, but... Government and regulation is ALWAYS THE PROBLEM! Fox & the GOP says so. Environment loving Democrats hate America.

Instead of being sniveling about it, one way you can approach this with the typical conservative/libertarian is the fact that these pesticides harm other people outside the property they are being used. We need pollinating insects to produce a third of our food supply. I just had to clear out a collapsed hive last week. This shit is no joke. There are a lot of reasons for it, and pesticides are one of the really big reasons (maybe second to the varoa mites).

The idea that your freedom to swing your fist extends to the length of my nose applies here. They won't see this in terms of economic externalities, being ideologically blind to such things, but if you see it in terms of property rights.. maybe.

Economic Externalities ARE Property Rights issues! This battle has been fought every which way, and Capitalists are always fighting against anyone trying to stop them from making their problem someone else's, since you can make more money that way. Remember acid rain? That was a property rights issue, the acid was destroying lakes and forests that belonged to other people or the public. The coal power industry fought tooth and nail saying it would cost too much to stop, till the cap and trade was implemented, and lo and behold far sooner than predicted SO2 emissions plummeted and the world did not end.

Yesterday I was driving with my kid and we see a car ahead of us open their door and toss trash into the street. It's always easy to make your problem someone else's problem if there's no one interested in stopping you.

The other aspect of this type of problem is that the burden of proof is too often reversed. The pesticide companies should have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that these chemicals are not dangerous to the environment and to humans, not the other way around.

Holy shit you're sounding like a Lefty big Govt Democrat now!

[Smitty-48]

Just to be clear, the Obama Administration only banned Neonicotinoid use in "Wildlife Refuges"

They didn't ban it for agricultural use, so this change doesn't make much of a difference to the bees.

The Neonicotinoids leech into everything from the farmer's fields, it's not coming from "Wildlife Refuges"

Are there better pesticide alternatives, both economically and environmentally? If anyone actually knows, and doesn't just take the Obama Admin EPA's word for it, enlighten me, I'm genuinely curious.

Like most science, it's not definitive, the bees don't go after the crops, the pesticides spread to wild flowers on the edge of the fields, so that could be killing some bees, but there are other bee killers, like Varroa Mites, those are suspected of inciting colony collapses as well.

[StCapps]

The other aspect of this type of problem is that the burden of proof is too often reversed. The pesticide companies should have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that these chemicals are not dangerous to the environment and to humans, not the other way around.

Holy shit you're sounding like a Lefty big Govt Democrat now!

Indeed.

[StCapps]

Just to be clear, the Obama Administration only banned Neonicotinoid use in "Wildlife Refuges"

They didn't ban it for agricultural use, so this change doesn't make much of a difference to the bees.

The Neonicotinoids leech into everything from the farmer's fields, it's not coming from "Wildlife Refuges"

Are there better pesticide alternatives, both economically and environmentally? If anyone actually knows, and doesn't just take the Obama Admin EPA's word for it, enlighten me, I'm genuinely curious.

Like most science, it's not definitive, the bees don't go after the crops, the pesticides spread to wild flowers on the edge of the fields, so that could be killing some bees, but there are other bee killers, like Varroa Mites, those are suspected of inciting colony collapses as well.

If it isn't definitive, as I suspected, then fuck the ban. StA can come back and talk to me when it is definitive.

[Smitty-48]

Are there better pesticide alternatives, both economically and environmentally? If anyone actually knows, and doesn't just take the Obama Admin EPA's word for it, enlighten me, I'm genuinely curious.

Like most science, it's not definitive, the bees don't go after the crops, the pesticides spread to wild flowers on the edge of the fields, so that could be killing some bees, but there are other bee killers, like Varroa Mites, those are suspected of inciting colony collapses as well.

If it isn't definitive, as I suspected, then fuck the ban. StA can come back and talk to me when it is definitive.

I have a ton of bees in my back yard every year, same this year, I detect no mass die off at my location.

Also bear in mind, the "all natural" pesticides that "organic" farmers use, also kill bees, so Neonics are not necessarily more deadly to bees than any other pesticides.

[StCapps]

Like most science, it's not definitive, the bees don't go after the crops, the pesticides spread to wild flowers on the edge of the fields, so that could be killing some bees, but there are other bee killers, like Varroa Mites, those are suspected of inciting colony collapses as well.

If it isn't definitive, as I suspected, then fuck the ban. StA can come back and talk to me when it is definitive.

I have a ton of bees in my back yard every year, same this year, I detect no mass die off at my location.

Also bear in mind, the "all natural" pesticides that "organic" farmers use, also kill bees, so Neonics are not necessarily more deadly to bees than any other pesticides.

StA is full of shit, as usual, who knew?

[Smitty-48]

If it isn't definitive, as I suspected, then fuck the ban. StA can come back and talk to me when it is definitive.

I have a ton of bees in my back yard every year, same this year, I detect no mass die off at my location.

Also bear in mind, the "all natural" pesticides that "organic" farmers use, also kill bees, so Neonics are not necessarily more deadly to bees than any other pesticides.

StA is full of shit, as usual, who knew?

I am protective of "my" bees. I love them. I observe them closely.

I got the flowers they love right here too, this is a bee mecca for sure, in my yard,

I get three types of bees here, they all seem pretty healthy, no signs of illness.

And the neonicotinoids are in wide use here, there's a farmers field less than a klick away.

If it's having effects, it's not catastrophic that I can see.