Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[Fife]

You guys always forget George Kellgren.

It's a big tent . . . I think I might unfold my SUB-2000 late this afternoon. Man it's fun.

[Montegriffo]

Many Americans don't think so. They relate to and trust to safeguard their interests to Mr Colt, Mr Browning, Mr Remington and Misters Smith & Wesson etc.

(Even if Mr Remington filed for bankruptcy short time ago, actually)

And it's quite normal that if the security system of a state collapses, then concerned citizens fill in the gap.

I know, we had that discussion on this forum I think half a year or so ago. And yes, but the fear of the collapse itself is what strengthens regimes and political systems who can rely on a scared populace (usually scared by the regime itself) into becoming even less free.

If this was a Muslim cleric making jokes about blowing up children at a pop concert would it be ok?
No country in the world lets its citizens have completely free speech without risk of prosecution.
Is masking racism in humour somehow no longer racism?
So long as the penalty is proportional I have no problem with prosecuting hate speech whether the accused pretends it is a joke or not.

The penalty isn't proportional. That's sorta what we're disagreeing with you about.

As for Muslim clerics making jokes about murdered children. He should go right ahead. Racism shouldn't be illegal. It's not racism that killed millions of Jews, gypsies, Slavs, Communists, Jehovas Witnesses, disabled and homosexuals in Nazi Germany. It was the notion by those in power that inhabitants of Germany should not be treated as equals. Similarly with USSR, China and Cambodia. Only the "right" thinking/looking peoples were allowed to survive. No equality before the law, thus no freedom.

I am not arguing for complete free speech without risk of prosecution. Me disagreeing with you is a question of scale. You're arguing like a totalitarian.

You don't know what the penalty is yet so how can you say it's not proportional.
Sure lm playing devils advocate here but I still believe that there should be certain limits to free speech. If this guy wants to show his dog's trick to his friends and family that's one thing but posting it on YouTube for all to see is different. If he were to tell his little joke down at his local Synagogue it might easily lead to a breach of the peace.
I don't even think he's a Nazi, I just think he's an idiot.

[BjornP]

You guys always forget George Kellgren.

With a name like that, he should have gone with "Kill Sticks Incorporated" instead of the dull and unimaginative "Kel-tec".

[Okeefenokee]

It's funny, but it's sad.

[BjornP]

You don't know what the penalty is yet so how can you say it's not proportional.
Sure lm playing devils advocate here but I still believe that there should be certain limits to free speech. If this guy wants to show his dog's trick to his friends and family that's one thing but posting it on YouTube for all to see is different. If he were to tell his little joke down at his local Synagogue it might easily lead to a breach of the peace.
I don't even think he's a Nazi, I just think he's an idiot.

Having a potential penalty for this at all is disproportionate.

I am not, and I don't think anyone is, arguing for total right to say anything at all you like. "Breach of the peace", or what Americans would call disorderly conduct, should relate to actual breach of the peace... not wether or not someone is offended about a joke. And it's telling what sort of "might have", "could have" scenarios you need to use to defend this crap. And yeah, maybe if he told that joke down at the local synagogue it might have lead to a breach of the peace. But he didn't, and should you really punish people for breaches of the peace that MIGHT happen? You wore a Che t-shirt to antagonize StA once, right? Well, that may, possibly, could'a, potentially, maybe lead to hordes of Neo-Nazis attacking you in the streets, causing a breach of the peace in your local street.

Therefore you should be arrested and fined for wearing a Che t-shirt, right? Even if it's joke. Because it may lead to someone throwing a fit and disturbing the peace because of it.

[Zlaxer]

You don't know what the penalty is yet so how can you say it's not proportional.
Sure lm playing devils advocate here but I still believe that there should be certain limits to free speech. If this guy wants to show his dog's trick to his friends and family that's one thing but posting it on YouTube for all to see is different. If he were to tell his little joke down at his local Synagogue it might easily lead to a breach of the peace.
I don't even think he's a Nazi, I just think he's an idiot.

Having a potential penalty for this at all is disproportionate.

I am not, and I don't think anyone is, arguing for total right to say anything at all you like. "Breach of the peace", or what Americans would call disorderly conduct, should relate to actual breach of the peace... not wether or not someone is offended about a joke. And it's telling what sort of "might have", "could have" scenarios you need to use to defend this crap. And yeah, maybe if he told that joke down at the local synagogue it might have lead to a breach of the peace. But he didn't, and should you really punish people for breaches of the peace that MIGHT happen? You wore a Che t-shirt to antagonize StA once, right? Well, that may, possibly, could'a, potentially, maybe lead to hordes of Neo-Nazis attacking you in the streets, causing a breach of the peace in your local street.

Therefore you should be arrested and fined for wearing a Che t-shirt, right? Even if it's joke. Because it may lead to someone throwing a fit and disturbing the peace because of it.

Shut your mouth you fucking filthy prole - You will say what we approve you to say and will not say what we do not approve you to say. Tough fucking nuggies....

[Speaker to Animals]

[Montegriffo]

You don't know what the penalty is yet so how can you say it's not proportional.
Sure lm playing devils advocate here but I still believe that there should be certain limits to free speech. If this guy wants to show his dog's trick to his friends and family that's one thing but posting it on YouTube for all to see is different. If he were to tell his little joke down at his local Synagogue it might easily lead to a breach of the peace.
I don't even think he's a Nazi, I just think he's an idiot.

Having a potential penalty for this at all is disproportionate.

I am not, and I don't think anyone is, arguing for total right to say anything at all you like. "Breach of the peace", or what Americans would call disorderly conduct, should relate to actual breach of the peace... not wether or not someone is offended about a joke. And it's telling what sort of "might have", "could have" scenarios you need to use to defend this crap. And yeah, maybe if he told that joke down at the local synagogue it might have lead to a breach of the peace. But he didn't, and should you really punish people for breaches of the peace that MIGHT happen? You wore a Che t-shirt to antagonize StA once, right? Well, that may, possibly, could'a, potentially, maybe lead to hordes of Neo-Nazis attacking you in the streets, causing a breach of the peace in your local street.

Therefore you should be arrested and fined for wearing a Che t-shirt, right? Even if it's joke. Because it may lead to someone throwing a fit and disturbing the peace because of it.

Well if we are going to bring up past indiscretions I could point out that only a couple of weeks ago you were telling me I had no right asking Americans to justify their gun control laws. Yet here I am having to justify the actions of a British court ( well Scottish actually as they have their own system of law ) to the board and getting called a cunt for my efforts.

[Otern]

Bear in mind, this was shown on television, at a time when there were plenty of holocaust survivors watching television.

That Scotsman made a video, and submitted it on youtube, where people would actively have to search it out to find it, at a time when there's very few holocaust survivors left, and extremely few of them spend their time watching some random Scotsman's youtube channel.

Monty Python was considerably more "offensive", and had a way bigger reach. Yet, it was tolerated.

I think there will be way more hatred directed towards jews if people get the perception they're a "protected class", which you're not allowed to joke about. That's way more dangerous than a pug giving a salute.

[Speaker to Animals]

This is what will happen here if people keep voting for democrats. The only viable solution seems to be to take over the GOP, drive out the neocons and libertarians, and make it a party of principles again.