Meanwhile in Iraq & Syria

[clubgop]

Why would they be scared. . .

Why were no Russian,
corpses pulled from airfield?
Because they were scared.

Sooo... if the US says it will bomb a place, it's what, being chicken to leave the area for the event?

But they told the Russians the whole thing was a big phoney baloney dog and pony show beforehand, so the Russians wouldn't bother trying to shoot down missiles which were not actually, and very deliberately not actually, even aimed at them, the Russians ain't gonna blow $50 million worth of missiles shooting at TLAMs which are targeted at the dirt, unlke Pussified America, when Mr. Ivan shoots, he shoots to kill.

If there's 59 targets to be engaged simultaneously, that's simply a waste of resources. But if there would have been 2 or 3 going in, that would be a good practice. What would be more humiliating for Trump is he lashes out missiles and they don't get through? I could hardly wait what kind of jokes the TV comedians would do about Trump then. A President failing in even bombing a country.

And shooting so many missiles at one target is a bit of a show from the US that "look, we can really shoot a lot these things at you".

And with missiles: once you have them, they do have a shelf life before the go bad. So if there is a reason, you can use them. And that for example why Russians used to fire Scuds in "counter-insurgency operations" during their war in Afghanistan. Of course one could argue if firing a surface-to-surface missiles at some rural area with dirt poor peasants is worth it, but hey, it was a use for them.

As I understand it there was some practical use. If wrapon caches were hit upon, especially chemical, you'd want to double tap that in essence so as not to cause collateral damage.

[Smitty-48]

Ca'mon folks, let's not be naive, hitting the chemical weapons "caches" is balderdash, remember when Obama had the Syrians "surrender all thier chemical agent under the supervision of the Russians?"

I mean, get real, the Russians are giving them the gas, it's Russian Sarin, they are not just protecting them, everything the Syrian's have in their inventory at this juncture, has been supplied by the Russians, straight from Russian stockpiles, whatever they need, up to and including Sarin, the Russians dgaf, they ain't squeamish about it, ain't no thang, just getter done.

The idea that this is "just Assad, the Russians are not the ones gassing people"? Yeah, just keep telling yourselves that, to justify pussing out, whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

Its not "made in Syria" and it's not "chlorine", chlorine leaves distinctive chemical burns around the mucous membranes, when you have the dead baby, pale corpse, but otherwise completely unblemished? That's chemical nerve agent, military grade.

Realpolitik, the Russians are using gas in Syria, Assad is just their front, plausible deniability, but he's not in charge, the Russians have been running things the whole time, Assad was "relieved of command" as soon as he had to go to the Russians to come save him.

The Russians had to come in, to keep the SAA from being overrun, and it was a Russian show as soon as they did, the Russians are running things, by default, the SAA can't take a dump without checking with the Russians first, because without the Russians, they can't even conduct sustained operations anymore, the Russians are bringing the kit in, and just handing it over, the Syrian military stockpile, ran dry a long time ago. The only "cashes" left in the Syrian inventory, are Russian caches, and there's always more where that came from, bet dat.

[JohnDonne]

So you say gassing folks was the Russians, not Assad? Remind me why the Russians did it?

Before I can understand Trump as being weak in regards to the fifty-nine million dollar missile dump, I need to know the counterexample of a strong decisive move. What would you have done if you were Trump instead?

[Smitty-48]

So you say gassing folks was the Russians, not Assad? Remind me why the Russians did it?

It's a terror weapon, psychological more than anything, CW is not actually that effective as a tactical weapon, because most combatants have gas masks, nerve agent is really only effective against civilians, children first and foremost, because their smaller lungs are the most vulnerable to it, and the Russians would use it to break their will, wear them down, crush their morale, they're sending the message; you can't protect your families while you're at the front, this is a no win situation, just pack it in before we kill you all, because make no mistake, we are prepared to go there.

The Russians don't have the "Western" mindset about WMD, to the Russians, it's just another tool in the toolbox, they don't treat it with the same reverence, because they're not squeamish about killing people in a war, "collateral damage" is not really in the Russian doctrinal vocabularly, as far as they are concerned; "war is hell, don't llke it, don't fight us, but if you do, it's gonna be no holds barred, because that's war, in case you didn't get the memo"

Russia is not a bourgeois country, they don't view war from the point of view of the bourgeoisie, and they don't lose any sleep over that, make no mistake, that whole bourgeois squeamishness "ZOMG gas! ZOMG we're killing babies!!!", that's entirely a Western thing, the Russians never got with that program.

Operationally, the Russian way of war is basically "scorched earth", they use everything in the inventory, there's nothing which is "prohibited" or "beyond the pale", they don't put much stock in these Western sanitizations like "precision strike" or "non combatant", that doesn't make any sense, to their understanding of war, they don't say "police action" or "stabilization operations" or any of that PC BS, they fight wars, they shoot to kill, they fight to win, no punches pulled, nothing is off the table and everybody in the combat zone is a combatant for all intents and purposes, which quite frankly, is the truth of it in the end.

[Smitty-48]

One thing to understand here, these ME dictators and their Generals, Saddam Hussien, Hafez Al-Assad, the Syrian Arab Army, the Iraqi Republican Guard, this brutality that they employ, it's not Arab in origin, it's not the Arab way of war per se, all these militaries, are Soviet by doctrine, they were built by the Soviets, they were trained by the Soviets, this scorched earth, it didn't come from Damascus or Baghdad, hundreds of years ago, this is all Soviet doctrine, and it came to the ME in the Cold War, in the 50's and 60's, so in the end, it's been the Russians the whole time, this is the Russian way of war, imported to the ME, and relatively recently in fact.

Saddam Hussien, who was his idol? Was it some Caliph or Imam? Nope, it was Uncle Joe Stalin, that's who these guy's are emulating and have been all along, these are Stalinist armies, led by Stalinists, using Stalinist doctrine.

[JohnDonne]

Alright, this would be my game plan. I would have decried the Assad gas attacks as Fake News, while at the same time tightening Russian sanctions, then I would conduct a small bomb raid on the Syrian airbase and if Russians got killed I would pretend like it wasn't us, But they'd know. Then I would conduct a military exercise right near Russian troops. Then I would have one of my staff go to the New York Times as an anonymous source and hint that I'm becoming increasingly unstable and erratic.

[Smitty-48]

Alright, this would be my game plan. I would have decried the Assad gas attacks as Fake News, while at the same time tightening Russian sanctions, then I would conduct a small bomb raid on the Syrian airbase and if Russians got killed I would pretend like it wasn't us, But they'd know. Then I would conduct a military exercise right near Russian troops. Then I would have one of my staff go to the New York Times as an anonymous source and hint that I'm becoming increasingly unstable and erratic.

Yeah, but the Russians would reply in kind, that's the thing, Trump is pulling the punches here, because he doesn't want to get into a thing with the Russians, which degererates into a tit for tat, with no exit strategy, likely on the advice of guys like McMaster and Mattis, McMaster and Mattis would be saying "whatever we do, if it hits the Russians, they will retaliate and then we will be into a tit for tat, how far down that rabbit hole are you want to go at this juncture Mr. President?". to which Trump has clearly said "not very far at all, so how do we avoid that shit?" to which McMaster and Mattis have obviously replied "We have to make sure that we don't muss one hair on even one Russians head, can't hit the Russians at all, if you want to avoid a cycle of retaliation, because make no mistake, we ding up even one Russian here, they will be inclined to exact a price for that, no ifs ands nor buts about it".

The Russians just ain't having that shit, you kill one Russian, they will kill Americans for that, one way or another, they're happy to play that game right back at you, and when they kill Americans in retaliation, deniable, but everybody knows it was them, then you're into a cycle of retaliation, which, let's be real here, America will be the one who backs down first, because unless you're prepared to go right to the brink and call the Russians nuclear bluff, which you're not, the Russians ain't backing down, they're not going to eat crow unless you're really right up in their grill, cocked locked and ready to rock, B-52's and the whole shebang, which, America is not prepared to risk at this juncture, and certainly not for Syria.

[JohnDonne]

At some point during the escalation, like after I blow up like fifty of their guys, I'll call him up and be like "Hey, let's talk." And then we'll agree the whole thing has gotten out of hand. And then I'll do a military exercise right on their doorstep.

Also, the escalation will be randomized. I'll go from killing three of their guys to twenty then down to five again.

My responses will dictate their responses, but their responses will not dictate mine.

[Smitty-48]

It's the Russians, they'll agree to talk, they'll break out the vodka, they will smile and shake hands and say everything is good... then they will kill a bunch of Americans in a vicious retaliation, just to make sure you know what the score is, you kill Russians, they will exact a price, and quite frankly, they are way nastier than you are, they will go for the soft targets, they will make it hurt, so, if that's how you want to go, that's how it would go.

Me, I would skip all that and take things right to the brink, do not pass go, do not bother with the tit for tat, right up to the North Cape and into the Barents Sea, flags flying, pipes skirling, sabres glinting in the sun, to the very edge of nuclear anihilation, make him stare into the abyss, and believe that you ain't playin', because in the end, that's the only way you put Mr. Ivan in his place, to make it stick, without him coming back at you, for a generation or so at least.

You just go right up to Mr. Ivan's Nuclear Red Line, and blow right by it, don't even slow down, just defy him to nuke you if he dares, that's how you put the fear of God into Mr. Ivan, it's the only thing that works, you have to out crazy Crazy Ivan, beat him at his own game, that's how its done.

[JohnDonne]

It's a good plan, except every four to eight years some peacenik counter president comes along and ruins the Clint Eastwood image. You'd have to be playing Russian Roulette, with the Russians, every four to eight years, and there might be a nuke inside one of those chambers.

Maybe we could enshrine a nuke policy in the constitution to make it stick. The 28th amendment, Russians must be nuked if they don't comply with Article 5/ whatever else we think of.