Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[Speaker to Animals]

There you go.

I am not talking about letting people die from drug abuse. I am saying that if we are going to "liberalize" all this other crap, it makes no sense to continue draconian control over masculinizing drugs and hormones.

[BjornP]

As far as the first sentence.. not really, dude. You can ingest all manner of dangerous drugs in Amsterdam, but Heaven forbid you try to use steroids to get bigger. Even here in America (and even on this forum) you will find people arguing that we should legalize the weed, but the same arguments for steroids and testosterone don't fly with them.

Furthermore, using steroids, HGH, and testosterone is not necessarily "unhealthy" either. For sure you can mess that stuff up pretty badly and shut yourself down, but there are instances where you really need those things. HGH and steroids, when used correctly can heal injuries that plague people for years and years. Men with low testosterone really should take testosterone supplementation if they cannot naturally increase production, but the laws make it very difficult to do so unless the man already suffers from disease that resulted from low testosterone in the first place. Meanwhile women who decided they are really men can get huge scripts for this shit without any care in the world for the repercussions of abuse (which it almost always is when women use these things).

It's like anything and can be abused. I would prefer for it to be made legal to use these drugs under a doctor's supervision to build muscle, repair nagging injuries, and to raise testosterone long before you end up with disease. That last part alone indicates well enough how crazy these laws really are. We are just talking about hormones, the female versions of which you can order as creams on Amazon. Do you think applying a shit ton of estrogen cream can't fuck with a woman's physiology too? That's not illegal.

Afaik, marihuana doesn't cause hormonal damage or increases in estrogen or anything like that. The reason I'd be against legalizing weed in Denmark, is that unlike alcohol, you may end up "hung over" for several days.

If a man has been diagnosed, by a doctor as having unhealthy levels of low testosterone, sure, give him testosterone supplements. Excatly as with pain medication, it should be used for those who need it, not those who don't. Denmark really doesn't have a good track record of regulating medicine use. We're infamous for our doctors prescribing anti-depressants like candy, and too many Danes still buy paracetamols as preventitative medication in case they might get headaches or pains from working. Apart from the popular story/myth of increased aggression, man-boobs and micro-penises about steroid use, it could be less about health and more about fairness in sports. That would correspond well with all the clubs that have their own professional bodybuilder teams, having to allow inspections by the Anti-Doping Denmark group, whereas fitness clubs for your average joes, not needing to.

[Speaker to Animals]

First of all, I don't know what it is like there, but in America, that stuff is tightly regulated. The levels of testosterone a man must have to -- in general -- get a script are so low that he probably already has disease or some illness relating to low testosterone. I am talking about, in some cases, cancer here. If your total levels fall below about a 400-500 (which is already really low), then you are set up for all sorts of health problems and possibly early death. 300 is the cutt off here from what I can tell, but that's already too late. There are good chances the man who makes it all the way down to 300 has something going wrong by then.

Secondly, I wouldn't limit it to just low testosterone. Men should have access to hormones and even steroids in order to build muscle or repair injuries, as two big examples. A man taking these things in relatively safe dosages under a doctor's supervision is not any more dangerous than the millions of women who take hormones to suppress ovulation. I'd argue that that birth control pills probably cause far more problems because of their widespread use and the prolonged use as well. It isn't your job to determine what some other guy should or should not do with his hormones. Most of us would never openly claim to want to tell women how they should be allowed to manage their hormonal systems. "Get your laws off my body" should apply to us too if it applies to women.

I am not saying it's perfectly safe to do these things. I have not used them, personally. But I don't want those options closed off to me because so many people hate "toxic masculinity". I think the betas like GCF can jump off a skyscraper or drink gasoline for all I care. You can see the contempt and frothing rage just dripping from his shitty little posts about this.

Lastly, marijuana can cause and exacerbate fucking psychosis. Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's "different". It's different only in how much damage that drug can do to a person's life.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I have not used them, personally.

[BjornP]

Fair enough, StA. I thought you were advocating a free-for-all sort of situation, but if there's a doctor's supervision involved and we're talking a man needing it, I see no problem. But if a man only feels, he "needs" hormones, but the doctor cannot find a medical reason to grant them to him, I don't see why he should get it. You can build muscle just fine without using artificials, if you're not suffering from some illness.

As for the comparison to women's ovulation: Potentially getting pregnant and potentially getting larger pecs or biceps is not something I can even think of as being in the same ballpark.

[Speaker to Animals]

Fair enough, StA. I thought you were advocating a free-for-all sort of situation, but if there's a doctor's supervision involved and we're talking a man needing it, I see no problem. But if a man only feels, he "needs" hormones, but the doctor cannot find a medical reason to grant them to him, I don't see why he should get it. You can build muscle just fine without using artificials, if you're not suffering from some illness.

As for the comparison to women's ovulation: Potentially getting pregnant and potentially getting larger pecs or biceps is not something I can even think of as being in the same ballpark.

Oh, hell no. I am not for that for recreational drugs either.

As far as a need, a woman doesn't "need" birth control pills either. Preventing conception is not a medical necessity. Doctors prescribe drugs and provide treatments that are not medical necessities all the time. Medical necessity is not a valid argument against providing scripts for these drugs and hormones so a man can build muscles.

What matters here is risk. While birth control pills actually cause quite a lot of problems in society due to the number of women using them and the long durations for which they use them, the individual risk is pretty low. That's why doctors don't mind handing out scripts. It's not different for testosterone. Lots of women have totally fucked up their hormonal system with those drugs too. It's a good analog.

[BjornP]

Lastly, marijuana can cause and exacerbate fucking psychosis. Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's "different". It's different only in how much damage that drug can do to a person's life.

I speculated it did not have any hormonal effects. While I don't see it as an outright dangerous drug, I'm not really a legalize weed guy.

[Speaker to Animals]

Lastly, marijuana can cause and exacerbate fucking psychosis. Don't sit there and try to tell me that it's "different". It's different only in how much damage that drug can do to a person's life.

I speculated it did not have any hormonal effects. While I don't see it as an outright dangerous drug, I'm not really a legalize weed guy.

Not that the analogy would be broken if marijuana had no hormonal effects, since it has detrimental effects far worse than testosterone anyway, but yeah, it does have hormonal effects. Pretty bad ones. It delays puberty, wrecks sperm counts, and disrupts ovulation. It definitely has adverse hormonal effects.

[BjornP]

Good discussion so far, but it's almost 2am here and I'm expecting an early call tomorrow. Will reply later.

[Montegriffo]

It delays puberty, wrecks sperm counts, and disrupts ovulation. It definitely has adverse hormonal effects.

Sounds like God's natural contraceptive.