What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

[Okeefenokee]

i've been saying 18th century industry to be clear that i'm not saying what we have now is what they had then.

[brewster]

i've been saying 18th century industry to be clear that i'm not saying what we have now is what they had then.

Like I said, the British colonists really didn't have a beef about the commerce till the post 7 years war taxes. Both the northern merchants and the southern planters were getting rich. Jeff was only in debt because he was a spendthrift. There was plenty of wealth in the South.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Requiring extremely underpaid labor to maintain Capitalism does not strike you as a variation of slavery?

I don't see the requirement. I'm in business. 2 actually. I build mechanical stuff and I rent apartments. People are free to pay me for what they need from me. I'm free to set my price for both services. No one is exploited. It's a mutually beneficial deal, as trade has been since we were trading flints for seashells. Trade has always been moving resources from where they're plentiful to where they're scarce. When the resource is labor, its the work that comes to them. But that labor would not take the job if it had better options.

Sure, extremely cheap labor is "preferred" by industry as it gives them huge profits, but that is not a requirement of Capitalism. Apple could be profitable tripling it's labor costs, but chooses bigger profit. Society is responsible for reining them in if it chooses to, known as regulation, it's not a flaw of Capitalism. The fact is the migration of industry to Right to Work States touted by StA is simply a hunt for cheaper domestic labor in less regulated states. Both parties benefit, cheaper labor and jobs where there weren't. Exploitation or just another deal?

Equating low wages with slavery is mocking the inhumanity and horror of actual human slavery, where there is NO personal freedom, your children can be sold, and you can be murdered when you are no longer productive.

Sure, but you're not running an international megacorp. Foxconn, anyone? Who's lining
Up for that job in the US?

Capitalism is awesome, until the system is broken by massive consolidation. (Fueled by corruption)

[brewster]

[
Sure, but you're not running an international megacorp. Foxconn, anyone? Who's lining
Up for that job in the US?

Yet the Chinese aren't being put to work at gunpoint at Foxconn. As sad as it sounds it's better than the work in the province they came from. They're not slaves nor were the white colonists.

It's a little bizarre on this right-wing board that I'm the one defending capitalism

[SuburbanFarmer]

[
Sure, but you're not running an international megacorp. Foxconn, anyone? Who's lining
Up for that job in the US?

Yet the Chinese aren't being put to work at gunpoint at Foxconn. As sad as it sounds it's better than the work in the province they came from. They're not slaves nor were the white colonists.

It's a little bizarre on this right-wing board that I'm the one defending capitalism

It doesn't require a gun or shackles anymore. Just deny them food unless they have enough little paper tickets. Then restrict the only means of getting paper tickets to a grueling 80-hour slave job, and berate them constantly.

If there's another definition to slavery, I'd love to hear it.

[Okeefenokee]

i've been saying 18th century industry to be clear that i'm not saying what we have now is what they had then.

Like I said, the British colonists really didn't have a beef about the commerce till the post 7 years war taxes. Both the northern merchants and the southern planters were getting rich. Jeff was only in debt because he was a spendthrift. There was plenty of wealth in the South.

bullshit. if they didn't have a problem with it, they wouldn't have been smuggling so much shit in and out illegally that the navy had to be brought in to stem the flood.

that's like saying people don't have a beef with drug prohibition because there isn't a popular violent revolt against it right now.

[Okeefenokee]

[
Sure, but you're not running an international megacorp. Foxconn, anyone? Who's lining
Up for that job in the US?

Yet the Chinese aren't being put to work at gunpoint at Foxconn. As sad as it sounds it's better than the work in the province they came from. They're not slaves nor were the white colonists.

It's a little bizarre on this right-wing board that I'm the one defending capitalism

dude, you are fucking nuts if you think 18th century colonialism was capitalism.

[heydaralon]

[
Sure, but you're not running an international megacorp. Foxconn, anyone? Who's lining
Up for that job in the US?

Yet the Chinese aren't being put to work at gunpoint at Foxconn. As sad as it sounds it's better than the work in the province they came from. They're not slaves nor were the white colonists.

It's a little bizarre on this right-wing board that I'm the one defending capitalism

dude, you are fucking nuts if you think 18th century colonialism was capitalism.

Okee: You seem very well versed in early America. In your opinion, what is the best book to read on this period? I've read Gordon Wood's American Revolution book, which was a slog tbh, but I do enjoy the time period a lot.

Also, in your opinion, who was the most interesting founding father? Who had the best mind?

[brewster]

dude, you are fucking nuts if you think 18th century colonialism was capitalism.

If there's been a capitalism without somebody's thumb on the scale I haven't heard about it. It was capitalism as much as the crony capitalism and too-big-to-fail crap we have now. It always depends on who's got the power to write and enforce the rules. And the North American colonialism sure was trade based capitalism compared to the pure pillaging in Latin America by the Spanish. If you happened to be a slave, of course, it'll all looked like a horror.

What would Jeff have done with an agrarian society trading with a industrializing one? He needed all those manufactured goods but didn't want to make them.

[Okeefenokee]

Yet the Chinese aren't being put to work at gunpoint at Foxconn. As sad as it sounds it's better than the work in the province they came from. They're not slaves nor were the white colonists.

It's a little bizarre on this right-wing board that I'm the one defending capitalism

dude, you are fucking nuts if you think 18th century colonialism was capitalism.

Okee: You seem very well versed in early America. In your opinion, what is the best book to read on this period? I've read Gordon Wood's American Revolution book, which was a slog tbh, but I do enjoy the time period a lot.

Also, in your opinion, who was the most interesting founding father? Who had the best mind?

i'm not very well versed on it at all, and that's the sad part. i'm not a scholar of this, but you don't have to be a phd to read through the federalist papers, and the anti-federalist papers and hear straight from the horses' mouths what were their thoughts and motivations at the time.

a ton of both collections were focused on not turning into europe. federalists like washington warned against acting like europe, and anti-federalists like jefferson did the same. this is not supposed to be some nuanced point of minutia we dug out of the weeds.

as for who's my favorite, i'll think on it.