No taxes, no legislature, no democracy -- No state

[The Conservative]

In the sense that there is no permanent centralized authority and participating in the society is 100% voluntary.

If you are on the ocean and decide that participating in pirate society just isn't for you, I bet you get volunteered by the society pretty damn quick.

That, or the impermanent centralized authority drops your sand-bagging ass in the drink.

We're assuming the sailor voluntarily undertook the voyage with the rules of the road laid out, aren't we?

Same as your HOA, once you join up of your free will, you obey rules. If you want a safe exit strategy, then there should be a rule for that in the contract. (And almost always there is, unless you are a sovereign state joining a suicide pact in Philadelphia in 1787, for example.)

Sanctity of contract is what keeps us from murdering each other in the street more than any government -- right now.

Most were free choice, the only ones that weren't were normally from China... or of the like. Hence Shanghai...

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

In the sense that there is no permanent centralized authority and participating in the society is 100% voluntary.

If you are on the ocean and decide that participating in pirate society just isn't for you, I bet you get volunteered by the society pretty damn quick.

That, or the impermanent centralized authority drops your sand-bagging ass in the drink.

We're assuming the sailor voluntarily undertook the voyage with the rules of the road laid out, aren't we?

Same as your HOA, once you join up of your free will, you obey rules. If you want a safe exit strategy, then there should be a rule for that in the contract. (And almost always there is, unless you are a sovereign state joining a suicide pact in Philadelphia in 1787, for example.)

Sanctity of contract is what keeps us from murdering each other in the street more than any government -- right now.

Are we assuming that? In this wonderful pirate democracy of volunteerism, you just might find the rules changing according to the needs of the ship and crew after you join. If you aren't happy about it - tough titties.

I agree that sanctity of contracts holds most people to their word and helps prevent violence in most cases better than government. Government comes for the free riders and defectors from civility - the edge-cases who would happily break faith.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

For a pirate, the ship is the state and the institution. Its needs are paramount, and the rules that protect it are enforced with violence.

Like a land-based state, it will exist until it is destroyed by external enemies or time, or the citizens revolt and abandon it.

[DBTrek]

Are we assuming that? In this wonderful pirate democracy of volunteerism, you just might find the rules changing according to the needs of the ship and crew after you join. If you aren't happy about it - tough titties.

The rules couldn't change without the unanimous consent of the crew, so it wasn't really an issue.
If you get into pirate governance, and the role of captain, you may well find yourself asking why anyone would want to be the captain rather than a regular ol crew member anyway.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Are we assuming that? In this wonderful pirate democracy of volunteerism, you just might find the rules changing according to the needs of the ship and crew after you join. If you aren't happy about it - tough titties.

The rules couldn't change without the unanimous consent of the crew, so it wasn't really an issue.
If you get into pirate governance, and the role of captain, you may well find yourself asking why anyone would want to be the captain rather than a regular ol crew member anyway.

I expect that, as with most systems where unanimous consent is claimed, dissenters are dispatched forthwith.

Like a little North Korea on the ocean.

Sounds awesome.

[DBTrek]

I expect that, as with most systems where unanimous consent is claimed, dissenters are dispatched forthwith.

Like a little North Korea on the ocean.

Sounds awesome.

No record of that happening, but I'm sure your suspicions give comfort to your biases.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I expect that, as with most systems where unanimous consent is claimed, dissenters are dispatched forthwith.

Like a little North Korea on the ocean.

Sounds awesome.

No record of that happening, but I'm sure your suspicions give comfort to your biases.

Honestly, it would be wonderful if you were right about this pirate utopia, but it all sounds a little like we haven't ever tried REAL self-organizing, voluntary governance without government.

Like a university socialist club making hay out of some tiny society on an island somewhere that didn't have a word for property, or some other shit, arguing that this is proof that even though we haven't tried REAL socialism at scale they have evidence it might work.

The college socialists rely on the crappy record keeping of their examples to maintain the romance of their ideas too.

[DBTrek]

Honestly, it would be wonderful if you were right about this pirate utopia, but it all sounds a little like we haven't ever tried REAL self-organizing, voluntary governance without government.

Like a university socialist club making hay out of some tiny society on an island somewhere that didn't have a word for property, or some other shit, arguing that this is proof that even though we haven't tried REAL socialism at scale they have evidence it might work.

The college socialists rely on the crappy record keeping of their examples to maintain the romance of their ideas too.

The record keeping of pirates and piracy is fairly extensive, not crappy. It covers all manner of grisly shit - such things that would make the scenario you propose look like a walk through the park.

But I understand your resistance to the idea.
And Martin's.
And every fan of Teddy Roosevelt's.

It flies in the face of the core of your belief system, and as such, cannot be permitted to be true.
/shrug

[Martin Hash]

In a pirate society, I would have to be Black Marty, raising to the top through brutality & butchery. As enticing as that seems, liberty allowed me to become a Renaissance Myn. For those who could never become Renaissance Myn, the advantages of liberty just make them feel inferior.

[The Conservative]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governanc ... ury_piracy

The captain was elected by all the men in the crew and could be replaced by a majority vote by the same. Cowardly or brutal captains were quickly voted out of their position.[1] Captains were expected to be skilled and dependable seamen. They were also expected to be bold and decisive leaders[2] since they made the most important decisions including how to engage a target, how to pursue prey, how to escape the authorities and how to deal with an attack. In the latter situations, there was no time for taking a vote and settling conflicting opinions.[3]

The quartermaster had the same authority as a captain (except during battle). The crew elected him to represent their interests. He commanded the crew during absence of the captain. His other jobs included keeping order, settling conflicts between crew members and determining the amount of food and drink distributed to each crew member.[2]

The sailing master oversaw the navigation and sailing of the ship. Often, because of their skills, they were forced into service for pirates. The boatswain took care of the boat by supervising supplies, inspecting the ship every morning and reporting the condition of the ship to the captain. He also supervised deck activities including the handling of the sails and the weighing and dropping of the anchor. The carpenter, under the boatswain and quartermaster's directions, repaired the ship. Sometimes, the carpenter would also be the surgeon on the ship. The master gunner ensured that the cannons and weapons were in working order. The mate (often there were first and second mates) usually worked under the ship's master, boatswain, gunner or carpenter as an apprentice. Mates also outfitted the ship with ropes, pulleys, sails and other rigging as needed.[2]