What is “Good” Art?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Art should make you feel something............... No ?

I'm personally more moved by Lascaux Cave Paintings than I am the Mona Lisa. I have nothing in common with her, I have no reference, but I'm a hunter, and I can put myself into the scene of that bison Auroch hunt 10,000 years ago, and how the meat was processed, appreciated and the stories that were told around that campfire.

That is sort of the crux of it. Any artist is trying to create certain qualia for the consumer - and the more skilled you are, the easier that gets. But, sometimes there is shit you just can't fix.

I am not moved by reading Tolstoy in Russian because I do not understand Russian. Can't really blame Tolstoy's craft for that.

Right On.

Eye of the beholder.
And that circles right back to Marty's OP. There is a difference between good art and famous art.



Here's one of the greatest images ever created, it's clearly famous, and I'd definitely call it great art.



Love it or hate it, you know what it is and it likely stirs feelings in you, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't know what it is.

Sort of.... but I am arguing that the Beholder's untrained eye or lack of experience doesn't reflect poorly on the thing beheld.

Leonardo da Vinci probably would have about the same reaction to the U.S. flag as you have to the Mona Lisa. It just can't mean very much to a renaissance Italian.

[Smitty-48]

I don't find the Canadian flag to be artistic, quite the opposite

art is truth

the Maple Leaf represents a unified Confederation, which is a lie

so it is not art, but rather totalitarianism

the Maple Leaf is like the Nazi Swastika, it erases history and replaces it with state authoritarian dogma

[Smitty-48]

art in Canada is all state controlled

the artists here are chosen by the establishment

you are only allowed to produce what is authorized by the government minders & gatekeepers

the art snobs are the Nazis

Post National State is just the Canadian euphemism for totalitarian dictatorship of the elites

[C-Mag]

I don't find the Canadian flag to be artistic, quite the opposite

art is truth

the Maple Leaf represents a unified Confederation, which is a lie

so it is not art, but rather totalitarianism

the Maple Leaf is like the Nazi Swastika, it erases history and replaces it with state authoritarian dogma

I get that.
But it's a more recent development isn't it?

When I was a kid in the seventies and first flew into Edmonton, then headed up to tiny Green Court, it was something different. Our friends up there were great people, and very proud of Canada and their flag. The Canadian flag is distinct and recognizable.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

art in Canada is all state controlled

the artists here are chosen by the establishment

you are only allowed to produce what is authorized by the government minders & gatekeepers

the art snobs are the Nazis

Post National State is just the Canadian euphemism for totalitarian dictatorship of the elites

Counter-intuitively, this is a condition that can be quite good for art, if not the artist. Trying to sneak interesting and novel ideas past the censors requires skill, subtlety and artifice - all components of great art.

It is like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, or Richter under Stalin. Some of real towering pillars of genius - they were miserable and scared all the time (especially Shostakovich - Prokofiev took it in stride because he was a smart-ass), but made some damn-fine art.

[C-Mag]

Sort of.... but I am arguing that the Beholder's untrained eye or lack of experience doesn't reflect poorly on the thing beheld.

Leonardo da Vinci probably would have about the same reaction to the U.S. flag as you have to the Mona Lisa. It just can't mean very much to a renaissance Italian.

What is the untrained eye ? There's the rub.

The art snob will go into all sorts of technical reasons and lather you with a heavy dose of how 'the experts' agree. When the art snobs look at a Russell painting they see an illustration, but they know so little of the time and place that they can't fully appreciate the true subtleties of the colors or that the artist got the structure and movements of the animals correctly. My I has been trained to pick up on those things and I appreciate the detail.

[Smitty-48]

art in Canada is all state controlled

the artists here are chosen by the establishment

you are only allowed to produce what is authorized by the government minders & gatekeepers

the art snobs are the Nazis

Post National State is just the Canadian euphemism for totalitarian dictatorship of the elites

Counter-intuitively, this is a condition that can be quite good for art, if not the artist. Trying to sneak interesting and novel ideas past the censors requires skill, subtlety and artifice - all components of great art.

It is like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, or Richter under Stalin. Some of real towering pillars of genius - they were miserable and scared all the time (especially Shostakovich - Prokofiev took it in stride because he was a smart-ass), but made some damn-fine art.

I have no chance of being published in Canada

literary agents like my writing, but they say it's unpublishable in Canada

the minders & gatekeepers are only interested in certain types of snobby establishment art, it is tightly controlled

but I don't find that I write for the purposes of being published

I mostly write for my wife, she is my muse, and she is a voracious reader, naughty little bookworm

art is really just between yourself and your lover, your muse, selling it as a product is a whole nother ballgame

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Sort of.... but I am arguing that the Beholder's untrained eye or lack of experience doesn't reflect poorly on the thing beheld.

Leonardo da Vinci probably would have about the same reaction to the U.S. flag as you have to the Mona Lisa. It just can't mean very much to a renaissance Italian.

What is the untrained eye ? There's the rub.

The art snob will go into all sorts of technical reasons and lather you with a heavy dose of how 'the experts' agree. When the art snobs look at a Russell painting they see an illustration, but they know so little of the time and place that they can't fully appreciate the true subtleties of the colors or that the artist got the structure and movements of the animals correctly. My I has been trained to pick up on those things and I appreciate the detail.

Well, the obvious example is, again, trying to read a novel in a language you haven't mastered.

I think what you are describing with Russell is an instance of outsider art, or an art subculture. A lot of times those will fly under the radar of experts. In general, I trust snobs and experts when they say something is good, but am suspicious of them when they tell me something is bad. Mostly because if you don't like something you won't spend much time trying to understand it and meet it where it is, so you can't really be much of an expert.

That is just my rule of thumb, though. The exception, of course, being James Fenimore Cooper - I enjoy reading his novels, but Mark Twain was right about him. He is a trash writer. Redundant, overwrought, incapable of creating sympathetic characters.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

art in Canada is all state controlled

the artists here are chosen by the establishment

you are only allowed to produce what is authorized by the government minders & gatekeepers

the art snobs are the Nazis

Post National State is just the Canadian euphemism for totalitarian dictatorship of the elites

Counter-intuitively, this is a condition that can be quite good for art, if not the artist. Trying to sneak interesting and novel ideas past the censors requires skill, subtlety and artifice - all components of great art.

It is like Shostakovich, Prokofiev, or Richter under Stalin. Some of real towering pillars of genius - they were miserable and scared all the time (especially Shostakovich - Prokofiev took it in stride because he was a smart-ass), but made some damn-fine art.

I have no chance of being published in Canada

literary agents like my writing, but they say it's unpublishable in Canada

the minders & gatekeepers are only interested in certain types of snobby establishment art, it is tightly controlled

but I don't find that I write for the purposes of being published

I mostly write for my wife, she is my muse, and she is a voracious reader, naughty little bookworm

art is really just between yourself and your lover, your muse, selling it as a product is a whole nother ballgame

Probably because your sex scenes are too intense, you filthy Canadian Henry Miller.

But, you are right. Selling the product is often a different skill-set from producing. People threw Schubert themed parties just to hear Schubert improvise - but he died a syphilitic pauper - that dude FUCKED.

[Smitty-48]

Probably because your sex scenes are too intense, you filthy Canadian Henry Miller.

he didn't appreciate his muse, he couldn't keep up with Maralyn, he tried to cage her, he needed to put her down

my sex scenes do make my wife blush mind you, because she knows which parts are about her