Poking the Bear Again

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Without doing any real research, I'd say we had more official troops in, say, South Korea than any Koreans' had.... and imposed a model of our government - but it was never US 'territory' in a capital U, U.S.A. nation-state sense. That aside -

I'm comfortable with more rather than less. I think we do need to defend the Ukraine - part of the alliance deal. But short of nuclear war, I don't really have skin in the game, so I'll personally hold on more saber rattling.

Crimea was part of the Russian Empire, then the Soviet Union, it's far more Russian than Hawaii is American

asserting American forces in Korea as being proxy for Russian forces in Crimea is a deeply mistaken assumption

thinking that Crimea is "not really Russia" is the sort of miscalculation which would start a nuclear war

I'll admit it was a rough analogy - but no rougher than suggesting Hawaii is less American than Crimea is Russian.

An Oblast is an administrative title. I'm not sure it even implies the same territorial assumption that 'colony' does.

As to what would start a nuclear war... well, shit - could be just about any pissing contest, administrative or not.

[Smitty-48]

Without doing any real research, I'd say we had more official troops in, say, South Korea than any Koreans' had.... and imposed a model of our government - but it was never US 'territory' in a capital U, U.S.A. nation-state sense. That aside -

I'm comfortable with more rather than less. I think we do need to defend the Ukraine - part of the alliance deal. But short of nuclear war, I don't really have skin in the game, so I'll personally hold on more saber rattling.

Crimea was part of the Russian Empire, then the Soviet Union, it's far more Russian than Hawaii is American

asserting American forces in Korea as being proxy for Russian forces in Crimea is a deeply mistaken assumption

thinking that Crimea is "not really Russia" is the sort of miscalculation which would start a nuclear war

I'll admit it was a rough analogy - but no rougher than suggesting Hawaii is less American than Crimea is Russian.

An Oblast is an administrative title. I'm not sure it even implies the same territorial assumption that 'colony' does.

As to what would start a nuclear war... well, shit - could be just about any pissing contest, administrative or not.

do you have another point to make ?

you are wrong, I am right, I have no doubt, but I have no desire to keep repeating myself

I am extremely knowledgeable on the subject, posting for your benefit

but I have no interest in trying to prove anything to you, if you don't want the information, then don't take it

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Crimea was part of the Russian Empire, then the Soviet Union, it's far more Russian than Hawaii is American

asserting American forces in Korea as being proxy for Russian forces in Crimea is a deeply mistaken assumption

thinking that Crimea is "not really Russia" is the sort of miscalculation which would start a nuclear war

I'll admit it was a rough analogy - but no rougher than suggesting Hawaii is less American than Crimea is Russian.

An Oblast is an administrative title. I'm not sure it even implies the same territorial assumption that 'colony' does.

As to what would start a nuclear war... well, shit - could be just about any pissing contest, administrative or not.

do you have point to make ?

you are wrong, I am right, I have no doubt, but I have no desire to keep repeating myself

No point.

Just genuinely curious. Unfortunately for me, mild antagonism helps me learn.... which can be irritating for everyone around me.

Not fucking with you - keep posting them juicy nuggets about this shit.

[Smitty-48]

I'll admit it was a rough analogy - but no rougher than suggesting Hawaii is less American than Crimea is Russian.

An Oblast is an administrative title. I'm not sure it even implies the same territorial assumption that 'colony' does.

As to what would start a nuclear war... well, shit - could be just about any pissing contest, administrative or not.

do you have point to make ?

you are wrong, I am right, I have no doubt, but I have no desire to keep repeating myself

No point.

Just genuinely curious. Unfortunately for me, mild antagonism helps me learn.... which can be irritating for everyone around me.

Not fucking with you - keep posting them juicy nuggets about this shit.

this is my extremely advised opinion based on decades of study

it's not an argument, it's analysis

I am not bound to prove my opinion, so there is nothing to argue about

you are free to take it or leave it, I know I am right, but if you don't think so, that's fair enough

I just don't see the point in you repeating that you don't think so over & over

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

It's Socratic - and exclusively for my benefit since you've got the expertise.

I've never actually thought about how a random Russian (or Putin, for that matter) thinks about an Oblast in relation to how I (or Biden, or any other POTUS) thinks about Puerto Rico.

So, I'm straight. Thanks for humoring.

[Smitty-48]

It's Socratic - and exclusively for my benefit since you've got the expertise.

I've never actually thought about how a random Russian (or Putin, for that matter) thinks about an Oblast in relation to how I (or Biden, or any other POTUS) thinks about Puerto Rico.

So, I'm straight. Thanks for humoring.

you seem immune to evidence anyways

Crimea has been Russian since it was taken from the Ottoman Turks in 1783, that's not like Puerto Rico

[Smitty-48]

Crimea was only briefly part of the Ukrainian SSR from 1954 to 1991

none the less, the Ukrainians never lived there

the population remained Russian, the second largest ethnic group is Tatars

if it wasn't Russian, the Russians would not have been able to take it back

the reason they could is that the Ukrainians don't live there, the population is friendly Russians

if it was Ukrainian, there would be an insurgency, but there isn't, because it's always been Russian

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

It's Socratic - and exclusively for my benefit since you've got the expertise.

I've never actually thought about how a random Russian (or Putin, for that matter) thinks about an Oblast in relation to how I (or Biden, or any other POTUS) thinks about Puerto Rico.

So, I'm straight. Thanks for humoring.

you seem immune to evidence anyways

Crimea has been Russian since it was taken from the Ottoman Turks in 1783, that's not like Puerto Rico

You wound me.

Still, I know more about boats and the Black Sea than I did yesterday.

I claim Moral Victory. Eat shit nerds.

[Smitty-48]

It's Socratic - and exclusively for my benefit since you've got the expertise.

I've never actually thought about how a random Russian (or Putin, for that matter) thinks about an Oblast in relation to how I (or Biden, or any other POTUS) thinks about Puerto Rico.

So, I'm straight. Thanks for humoring.

you seem immune to evidence anyways

Crimea has been Russian since it was taken from the Ottoman Turks in 1783, that's not like Puerto Rico

You wound me.

Crimea is a Russian enclave, and has been for 238 years

it also has been the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea Fleet since 1783

including when it was nominally in the Ukrainian SSR from 1954 to 1991

the key thing to understand is that is was never really Ukrainian, it was Russian, then Soviet, then Russian again

on top of all that, it has always been the most strategically vital military installation in Russia

to the Russians, it is as important as Norfolk Virginia

an attack on Crimea would be an attack on ethnic Russians, who are Russian citizens, on Russian territory

not to mention an attack on their Norfolk Virginia

so that would start World War Three on the spot, in my opinion at least

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

you seem immune to evidence anyways

Crimea has been Russian since it was taken from the Ottoman Turks in 1783, that's not like Puerto Rico

You wound me.

Crimea is a Russian enclave, and has been for 238 years

it also has been the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea Fleet since 1783

including when it was nominally in the Ukrainian SSR from 1954 to 1991

the key thing to understand is that is was never really Ukrainian, it was Russian, then Soviet, then Russian again

on top of all that, it has always been the most strategically vital military installation in Russia

to the Russians, it is as important as Norfolk Virginia

an attack on Crimea would be an attack on ethnic Russians, who are Russian citizens, on Russian territory

not to mention an attack on their Norfolk Virginia

so that would start World War Three on the spot, in my opinion at least

The window of modern non-Soviet Slavic/Balkan independence is very narrow. What? Mid-Reagan to end of Clinton.... max?

I asked for a strong argument for why Russians would go all the way to the hilt of nuclear WWIII - and I got it. I'd like to think that a unified, US led NATO (or equivalent pact) would get them to back down, but you're right - the Russians (or, at least Putin) probably view Crimea as an unassailable Russian territory.

They only backed down from that position for that brief period when all of Europe and America were unified against them, and resolute.

Either way, I am in to rolling some boats into the Black Sea - but I think the Russians will back down before going full black-glass. This is just an opinion, no evidence whatsoever to support it.

Call it an article of faith.