Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:13 pm
heydaralon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:04 pm
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:00 pm
I don't know what to say. If you think that organizations dedicated to being a platform for international diplomacy and information sharing are pointless, then there isn't anything I can say that is going to convince you otherwise.
However, saying that they are useless BECAUSE bad agents will hide their bad agency is like saying police and justice systems are pointless because criminals will always lie about their crimes.
Well, if every criminal could hide their crimes from the cops more or less without consequences, it would sort of raise questions about the purpose of having the police agency. It would leave two options:
1) Give the police more power (the police being the UN, so we are probably in agreement that's not what we want to do)
2) Disband the ineffective law enforcement agency and figure out other ways to deal with the problem.
Not all police work is punitive. Investigation is important, but often flawed, just as with the UN, but that doesn't make it useless. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Diplomatic relations are another a hallmark of the best police forces.
There are also nations who do respond to threat of sanction from international bodies.
What you gave me is one of your classic false dilemmas. But, again, if you don't see the use of a diplomatic organization then there is not much to say.
What are some of my other false dilemnas?
As far as investigative work, I will give you an example. North Korea let in UN inspectors during its famine in the 90's. It did not take them to any of the villages where people were eating grass and bark and dropping like flies. It took them to a Potemkin village. Then it kept taking them back to that village over and over again and insisting that it had shown them multiple ones. It would not let anyone from the UN who spoke Korean into the country. The famine continued and the same regime is in power today.
Israel was building nukes in the Demona plant back in the 60's and the UN wanted to visit. It would not show them certain areas. When they'd come back later the Israelis would use every excuse in the book saying, "Its a jewish holiday," or "We are fumingating that place" or whatever. Eventually Israel got nukes.
Since the UN is fundamentally toothless, they really can't compell these countries (even rogue states like NK have China as a tenuous partner which would veto action) because they always have a Security council protector. So to me, it seems like the investigative aspect of this law enforcement agency is also very questionable.
I guess you could point to Somalia as a sort of rare outlier where the UN came in. But that was a disaster. It accomplished nothing besides giving some local warlords grain to use as a means of control for the starving population. They have no real successes from what I can tell.
As far as diplomacy goes, what is stopping America from unilaterally sending diplomats to China, or Zimbabwe, or Belgium? Diplomacy has been conducted for as long as humans have had groups and for all but 70 of those years the UN didn't exist. Diplomacy wouldn't stop just because the UN ceased to exist.