No Federal Taxes?

[Smitty-48]

It's how Washington deals with dissidents.

They're not gonna bother me, I'm not a dissident.

I take my capital gains, they get their cut.

I adopt the strategy of the rich.

Avoid work to avoid income.

Live by capital alone.

[Smitty-48]

You've got it all wrong, Carlus.

Make Work Fake Work is not imposed from above.

It is demanded from below.

Americans are Protestant Calvinists.

Washington is not forcing them to the coal face.

It's religion, deeply ingrained, for 400 years.

So they force themselves to the coal face.

Why? That's how Calvinists get to Heaven.

The Papists sell Tickets to Heaven.

The Calvinists work for St Peter.

Me and George Washington. We're Deists. Capital Gains FTW.

[C-Mag]

I wasn't arguing about the 'work hard, pay your taxes' mantra. I have no disagreements with you there.

[Smitty-48]

I wasn't arguing about the 'work hard, pay your taxes' mantra. I have no disagreements with you there.

I'm not arguing, I'm trying illustrate the origin of a political phenomena.

This is the Marty Hash forum, as Marty says; nobody is ever convinced of anything.

Which is tru. Which renders argument pointless.

[Martin Hash]

The Protestant Work Ethic has slipped only to the domain of Protestants, everybody else is taught work is a fool's errand, applicable only to the drones; we should all get free money from the government so we can do something meaningful.

The inevitable failing of socialism is consumption exceeding production.

[Speaker to Animals]

For a few years now, I have contemplated whether it could work if we implemented an alternative labor tax (in the spirit of the Incan Mit'a system). Thus, if you don't pay net taxes and you want to vote (presumably for gibs), then you could submit a labor tax. If the good renter class of Seattle want to raise property taxes to pay for "free" social programs, for example, then they'd have to agree to actually work in those free programs if they want to vote for them.

Pay for it or work for it, basically. But if you don't want to vote for it, then it doesn't matter.

I suspect a lot of this shit wouldn't fly if everybody who would not otherwise pay for it had to actually provide labor to support it. Goes back to my suspicion that freeloading is a really, really big problem in any universal democracy. Imagine if "we need free needle clinics for heroin addicts!" was met with "Sure thing, but if we vote yes on this, you are going to have to staff the needle clinic for fifteen days per year".

[brewster]

Imagine if "we need free needle clinics for heroin addicts!" was met with "Sure thing, but if we vote yes on this, you are going to have to staff the needle clinic for fifteen days per year".

Its interesting idea, I'm all for mandatory federal service. But "forced labor" has rarely been popular when it might put paid labor out of work. We only use it for crap that no one would choose to do, like picking up roadside garbage as Jimmy did in Better Call Saul. Do kids in other areas need to do public service hours to graduate Middle and High school? Here HS students need 50 hrs.

In reality what would happen is you could buy your way out of that 15 days like you were buying your way out of the draft, so you'd end up with just another class divide.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Imagine if "we need free needle clinics for heroin addicts!" was met with "Sure thing, but if we vote yes on this, you are going to have to staff the needle clinic for fifteen days per year".

Its interesting idea, I'm all for mandatory federal service. But "forced labor" has rarely been popular when it might put paid labor out of work. We only use it for crap that no one would choose to do, like picking up roadside garbage as Jimmy did in Better Call Saul. Do kids in other areas need to do public service hours to graduate Middle and High school? Here HS students need 50 hrs.

In reality what would happen is you could buy your way out of that 15 days like you were buying your way out of the draft, so you'd end up with just another class divide.

Didn’t have that in Florida 20 years ago. They were just starting to roll that out for college though. Don’t know about now.

[Speaker to Animals]

Imagine if "we need free needle clinics for heroin addicts!" was met with "Sure thing, but if we vote yes on this, you are going to have to staff the needle clinic for fifteen days per year".

Its interesting idea, I'm all for mandatory federal service. But "forced labor" has rarely been popular when it might put paid labor out of work. We only use it for crap that no one would choose to do, like picking up roadside garbage as Jimmy did in Better Call Saul. Do kids in other areas need to do public service hours to graduate Middle and High school? Here HS students need 50 hrs.

In reality what would happen is you could buy your way out of that 15 days like you were buying your way out of the draft, so you'd end up with just another class divide.

It wouldn't be forced. It would just allow people to vote who don't pay for their votes with money. If somebody wants to vote at the municipal level, and they don't own property, then they'd have to sign up for labor taxes. If somebody wants to vote at the national level, and they don't pay net income taxes, then they'd have to sign up for federal labor taxes. If they don't want to contribute labor taxes, then they don't vote, but nobody forces them to work.

It's a way to keep skin in the game, even if only a modest amount. I mean.. having to man a needle clinic you voted for isn't exactly like soldiers ordered to fight house-to-house in Fallujah. If a person refuses to serve in the armed forces, doesn't actually pay for anything, and isn't even willing to donate some modest number of hours each year for these social programs, then they probably should fuck right off instead of vote for anything.

At the end of the day, voting for other people to pay for your special services, even when you are not disabled or have some serious issue that makes your life actually difficult, is pretty much the same as forced work. No? The renter class of Seattle voting for the property owners to pay for all their stupid shit is forced work. I am just saying that, if somebody wants to vote for all this stuff, then they should also reciprocate the work. Some people have to work long hours in a job, God knows how many of those are basically working for the government, which means working for the people who don't pay for shit. The people who don't pay for shit through taxes could contribute their own work too. It's not really a huge request.

[brewster]

Imagine if "we need free needle clinics for heroin addicts!" was met with "Sure thing, but if we vote yes on this, you are going to have to staff the needle clinic for fifteen days per year".

Its interesting idea, I'm all for mandatory federal service. But "forced labor" has rarely been popular when it might put paid labor out of work. We only use it for crap that no one would choose to do, like picking up roadside garbage as Jimmy did in Better Call Saul. Do kids in other areas need to do public service hours to graduate Middle and High school? Here HS students need 50 hrs.

In reality what would happen is you could buy your way out of that 15 days like you were buying your way out of the draft, so you'd end up with just another class divide.

It wouldn't be forced. It would just allow people to vote who don't pay for their votes with money. If somebody wants to vote at the municipal level, and they don't own property, then they'd have to sign up for labor taxes. If somebody wants to vote at the national level, and they don't pay net income taxes, then they'd have to sign up for federal labor taxes. If they don't want to contribute labor taxes, then they don't vote, but nobody forces them to work.

It's a way to keep skin in the game, even if only a modest amount. I mean.. having to man a needle clinic you voted for isn't exactly like soldiers ordered to fight house-to-house in Fallujah. If a person refuses to serve in the armed forces, doesn't actually pay for anything, and isn't even willing to donate some modest number of hours each year for these social programs, then they probably should fuck right off instead of vote for anything.

At the end of the day, voting for other people to pay for your special services, even when you are not disabled or have some serious issue that makes your life actually difficult, is pretty much the same as forced work. No? The renter class of Seattle voting for the property owners to pay for all their stupid shit is forced work. I am just saying that, if somebody wants to vote for all this stuff, then they should also reciprocate the work. Some people have to work long hours in a job, God knows how many of those are basically working for the government, which means working for the people who don't pay for shit. The people who don't pay for shit through taxes could contribute their own work too. It's not really a huge request.

I understand where the idea is coming from, but it smacks of "poll tax" which has a long and sordid history of being used for targeted disenfranchisement. As you've described it, a working renter would basically would be prevented from voting for a program that costs, because even if they could get off from work, it would mean using all their vacation time to justify their voting. A "Starship Troopers" style universal service seems fairer, but would never pass.