Civil War Doomsday Clock

[Montegriffo]

''opt in''

[Montegriffo]

So back to my question. Do you have a link to the criteria?

[Speaker to Animals]

The fact that you refuse to address the argument tells us all you damned well know you are in the wrong here.

[Speaker to Animals]

Let me frame this in a way that even a child should understand:

What pissed off the commissars in the government schools was that parents were opting out of the state's cafeteria revenue stream. If, like school tuition, parents were forced to pay for school lunches and, if they so chose to feed their children decent food from home, they had to pay for their own food separately even though their kids did not consume the state slop, the commissars would not be upset in the slightest. They still get their money. That's all that matters.

The fact that parents are sending kids to real schools outside the government school district does not bother the state employees at all because the government school prisons still get their sweet tuition dollars whether parents pay for a SECOND TUITION PAYMENT or not. The school lunches were opt-in, and the best way to put quotes around "opt-in" was to ban most forms of home lunches.

Get back to me when you actually grok what the fuck we are talking about. Thanks.

So that you can't bury it. You might as well give up. I will keep reposting it until you honestly address it. I am sick of your shit when you know you lost an argument.

[Fife]

There's no running from Digital Fucking Concrete:

viewtopic.php?p=273837#p273837

As the prison warden puts it rather plainly, "FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT:" “The first and most important reason is a noncompetition regulation from the USDA, which protects school cafeterias from the competition of outside establishments. Food services in our school system are completely self-supported through sales within our schools, and allowing outside items serves as direct competition for their business,” Hampton wrote. “The other reason for this expectation involves the difficulty of managing dropped off items. The size of our school makes it very challenging to manage the number of food and beverage deliveries we have had in recent weeks.”

That quote is from one of the premises, number (P3.) which is the only topic that has even had a sniff. However, the premise is simply "P3. Many schools ban or restrict outside food not provided by the state," which is trivial. All the hand waving about refrigerators and muh turkey from home is just a bunch of nothing.

Any response to the argument? I didn't think so.

We have had a riveting sideshow about the quality of food that prisoners "deserve," however. Bully for that.

[Montegriffo]

Let me frame this in a way that even a child should understand:

What pissed off the commissars in the government schools was that parents were opting out of the state's cafeteria revenue stream. If, like school tuition, parents were forced to pay for school lunches and, if they so chose to feed their children decent food from home, they had to pay for their own food separately even though their kids did not consume the state slop, the commissars would not be upset in the slightest. They still get their money. That's all that matters.

The fact that parents are sending kids to real schools outside the government school district does not bother the state employees at all because the government school prisons still get their sweet tuition dollars whether parents pay for a SECOND TUITION PAYMENT or not. The school lunches were opt-in, and the best way to put quotes around "opt-in" was to ban most forms of home lunches.

Get back to me when you actually grok what the fuck we are talking about. Thanks.

So that you can't bury it. You might as well give up. I will keep reposting it until you honestly address it. I am sick of your shit when you know you lost an argument.

I did address it. I said ''opt-in'' and what is the criteria for banning foods?

We are having separate arguments.

You want to argue about big bad government and I am arguing that there are very good health reasons for banning certain foods and unless you can provide the criteria and show to me that they're unreasonable and financially motivated I've won my argument and you are not in possession of all the facts with yours.

[Speaker to Animals]

There's no running from Digital Fucking Concrete:

viewtopic.php?p=273837#p273837

As the prison warden puts it rather plainly, "FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT:" “The first and most important reason is a noncompetition regulation from the USDA, which protects school cafeterias from the competition of outside establishments. Food services in our school system are completely self-supported through sales within our schools, and allowing outside items serves as direct competition for their business,” Hampton wrote. “The other reason for this expectation involves the difficulty of managing dropped off items. The size of our school makes it very challenging to manage the number of food and beverage deliveries we have had in recent weeks.”

That quote is from one of the premises, number (P3.) which is the only topic that has even had a sniff. However, the premise is simply "P3. Many schools ban or restrict outside food not provided by the state," which is trivial. All the hand waving about refrigerators and muh turkey from home is just a bunch of nothing.

Any response to the argument? I didn't think so.

We have had a riveting sideshow about the quality of food that prisoners "deserve," however. Bully for that.

Ignoring Monty's ridiculous attempt to avoid admitting the motive of the school was to protect their lunch food revenue stream, I'd like to get a little bit Taleb-esque on folks here to argue that, even when we take the ostensible excuse at face value, the overall risk to children from centralized compulsive lunch services is far greater than the risk of kids bringing their own lunches to school and possibly getting sick.

The risk that any student's mother fails to include two cold packs and the sandwich meat develops enough bacteria to cause infection before the student eats his lunch at 11:30-12:00 represents an individual risk. It gets that student sick, but not every other student in the student body. All the students packing lunch boxes protects the entire student body from risk of food poisoning because each has relatively separate sources of food (with the problems of Big Agra's centralized food distribution being a separate issue we cannot address at the school level). Furthermore, when little Jimmy gets sick because Mom (probably named Deborah, let's be honest) forgot to pack cold packs in his lunch box, his parents are the ones who paid the cost because it was their child who got sick. They have every interest in the future to avoid making that simple mistake.

The random effect of a few kids getting sick from poorly packed lunch boxes serves to create greater resiliency in the health of the entire student body overall, because each incident is most likely to result in parents emending their lunch packing practices and each incident is insulated from affecting the other children.

These nanny statist attempts at eliminating risk through centralized control ALWAYS result in a worse outcome whereby you will see long periods of no incidents followed by a mass event (in this case, the entire student body exposed to food poison instead of just one kid). In this case, it takes only one mistake in the lunch cafeteria to infect the entire student body, whereas one mistake before only got one kid sick. Furthermore, because the government employees themselves face no consequences (no skin in the game), they are much less likely to emend their practices to avoid that happening in the future.

This iatrogenic risk is unavoidable. You actually want the small random effects and their risks because those things make society stronger and more resilient. By eliminating them through centralized control, you just create a more fragile system which, while in the meantime seems much safer, only sets you up for dramatic failures.

There really exists no justification for this shit. The entire government school program is an experiment at every level proving this lesson.

[Montegriffo]

Ignoring Monty's ridiculous attempt to avoid admitting the motive of the school was to protect their lunch food revenue stream,

Still waiting for evidence to back that claim.
What criteria do the schools use to decide which foods are allowed?

[Speaker to Animals]

Case in point:

Twenty-two children became ill Thursday after having lunch at a San Diego elementary school cafeteria, officials confirmed.

The children were nauseous, vomiting and suffering abdominal pains after eating lunch in the cafeteria at Audubon Elementary School. Officials said the nearly two dozen children were transported from the school to a local hospital.

Aerial views of the school showed several ambulances picking up children from campus and placing them inside the emergency vehicles. Police officers gathered at the school as well, and could be seen talking with concerned parents.

San Diego Fire-Rescue Battalion Chief Robert Garcia said the children possibly drank a beverage that had gone bad, perhaps juice or milk, and likely suffered food poisoning.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/ ... 28491.html

It began with school buses rushing vomiting students suffering from food poisoning to area hospitals — that was the scene earlier this week in King Williams Town in South Africa.

Hundreds of grade school students were taken to two provincial hospitals as they experienced stomach aches and vomiting, just after eating their government-provided school lunches. Ambulances, school buses and even taxis were used to get the students to hospitals.

Then it got worse. More than 1,000 students of all ages from as many as 10 schools had to be taken to two provincial hospitals, Bhisho and Gray.

The dramatic event brought out Eastern Cape Premier Phumulo Masualle, Health MEC Phumza Dyantyi and Education MEC Mandla Makupula on the following morning to visit casualty wards at the two hospitals where the children were being treated for severe diarrhea.

The food poisoning incident began with hundreds of grade schoolers from the Schornville Primary School in King Williams Town.

On the school lunch menu, according to the Eastern Cape Department of Education, was a “crumbly porridge” known locally as “umphokoqo,” which may have made with “expired sour milk.”

https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2016/10/ ... poisoning/\


Centralizing the risk may give you a fairly long time of no food poisoning incidents, but eventually it will happen and, when it does happen, the impact is going to be much much worse than had you just accepted a few kids get sick every now and again.

[Speaker to Animals]

Students at Risk of Deadly Food-Borne Pathogens, Report Warns

Ask any kid what they think of their school cafeteria. Then ask the scientists at the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI). The answers are likely to be similar.

A report issued by the CSPI warns that conditions in America’s school cafeterias could trigger potentially disastrous outbreaks of food poisoning at any time. Hartford, Conn., received the lowest score of all the systems studied.

CSPI’s Outbreak Alert database has documented more than 11,000 cases of foodborne illnesses associated with schools between 1990 and 2004. Just one outbreak can have devastating consequences on the health of students, productivity in the classroom, and even on school district’s finances.

To protect school children from food poisoning, CSPI recommends the following measures:

• State and local governments should adopt up-to-date safety standards and receive adequate funding to ensure compliance with federal inspection regulations outlined in the Child Nutrition and WIC Reauthorization Act of 2004.

• Schools should request timely inspections, employ certified food handlers, and use the best food safety procedures.

• Parents should monitor conditions in their child’s cafeteria and advocate for optimal food safety policies.

OR

Gateway Cold Storage Ammonia Poisoning Litigation

Marler Clark represented 35 students and teachers who suffered food poisoning after eating ammonia-tainted chicken in a school lunch served at Laraway Elementary School in Joliet, Illinois, in 2002.

Hundreds of children and teachers ate the lunch of chicken tenders which were contaminated with ammonia up to 133 times the level considered acceptable for human consumption. Investigators learned that the chicken had been contaminated by an ammonia leak at Gateway Cold Storage in St. Louis, Missouri. Once discovered, the plant planned to throw out the tainted food, but instead hundreds of cases of chicken were fumigated and repackaged and shipped to schools.

In a rare criminal follow-up, state authorities indicted two Illinois Board of Education members and an operations manager of a food distribution warehouse.

Finley School District E. coli Litigation – Washington

In 2001, Marler Clark won a record $4.6 million judgment on behalf of 11 children sickened by E. coli O157:H7 in undercooked taco meat served at a school lunch at Finley Elementary School in southeast Washington State. The jury award was subsequently upheld, and the state Supreme Court declined to review that decision.

A jury agreed with state Health Department investigators who concluded that the E. coli infections came from hamburger meat that had been frozen, then inadequately thawed and cooked for the school lunches. Most of the award went to a young girl, then just 2 years old, who didn’t eat the meal but was later infected by one of the older victims. The youngster underwent kidney dialysis and is expected to have lifelong aftereffects from the E. coli toxins.

https://www.marlerblog.com/legal-cases/ ... u-thought/


Just on the face of it this dumbass excuse "for the children's safety" fails. Centralizing the risk makes the impact of an event extremely bad, much worse than distributing the risk and dealing with individual students occasionally getting sick.

Meanwhile, you can see DECADES of this problem being documented and no school system ever seems to really fix the problem. That's because none of the people responsible for it pay the costs. It's not their kids. It's not their medical bills. Even if the school system gets sued, it won't come out of their paycheck and their union won't pay a dime either.