Plutarch on animal ethics

[Speaker to Animals]

Here's a freak one; guy didn't get killed but was permanently injured.

A storm whipped up and the wind blew a modular tent across a field.

Corporal with his back turned to it teaching a lecture in said field.

Spike from the tent pole impales him in the head.

Fuck. That's some bad luck.

[Smitty-48]

Here's a freak one; guy didn't get killed but was permanently injured.

A storm whipped up and the wind blew a modular tent across a field.

Corporal with his back turned to it teaching a lecture in said field.

Spike from the tent pole impales him in the head.

Fuck. That's some bad luck.

I watched it go down. I could see the tent coming and I was yelling at him but he couldn't hear me over the wind.

[Smitty-48]

When I got to him, it was like a GSW to the head, I could see his brains, so I thought he was Pri 4 right there.

The brain surgeons managed to patch him back together. Sort of.

[JohnDonne]

https://www.livescience.com/54774-fetal ... hesia.html


Not that I think "feeling pain" is a viable argument for personhood, but if that's your metric, then you should probably place the marker down at around 8 weeks.

I mean.. when this Spartan UBI thing kicks off, the men in the training camps feel pain and lots of them are going to have to get killed for the sake of the unit.

The research in your own article says several key points are required, not one key point, several. Which makes sense, consciousness is clearly a complicated phenomenon.

Having a subjective experience of pain is pretty much the philosophical definition of personhood

Now you are talking about a completely different thing. Don't move goalposts. You said the capacity to feel pain. That starts at eight weeks.

Consciousness is not something most human adults experience very often. It's really not that common. I can tell you are running on a script right now. Smack yourself in the face. BWAP!

There you go. Now you are conscious.

Only human beings have consciousness, and it's not even clear consciousness is anything but a cultural invention that arises from neuroplasticity. You should read some Julian Jaynes.

Nah, these are word games. When I say experience pain, we all know it’s about a conscious experience, that’s why when you’re under anathesia you don’t experience pain, you’re unconscious. So this bicameralism theory is all mush-mouth word games.

And animals in the wild are the most alert, aware beings you’ll see, moreso than most humans.

[Speaker to Animals]

The research in your own article says several key points are required, not one key point, several. Which makes sense, consciousness is clearly a complicated phenomenon.

Having a subjective experience of pain is pretty much the philosophical definition of personhood

Now you are talking about a completely different thing. Don't move goalposts. You said the capacity to feel pain. That starts at eight weeks.

Consciousness is not something most human adults experience very often. It's really not that common. I can tell you are running on a script right now. Smack yourself in the face. BWAP!

There you go. Now you are conscious.

Only human beings have consciousness, and it's not even clear consciousness is anything but a cultural invention that arises from neuroplasticity. You should read some Julian Jaynes.

Nah, these are word games. When I say experience pain, we all know it’s about a conscious experience, that’s why when you’re under anathesia you don’t experience pain, you’re unconscious. So this bicameralism theory is all mush-mouth word games.

And animals in the wild are the most alert, aware beings you’ll see, moreso than most humans.

Well, no, it is not. Animals can experience pain but they lack consciousness. If consciousness is your metric, then eat BBQ. You are golden.

[Smitty-48]

Another freaky one, happened a bit before my time, and wasn't even army but rather army cadets.

Buncha cadets sitting around a tent handling what they were told was a dummy grenade.

Turns out a live one got into the mix and one of the kids pulled the pin.

Boom.

[Speaker to Animals]

The only shit I ever saw go wrong was a plane crash and a fucking F-16 leaking hydrazine and almost getting me killed. Both of those had multiple points of failure from my perspective.

I saw LOTS of potential disasters, but we usually catch them (it takes at least three most of the time).

[JohnDonne]

Now you are talking about a completely different thing. Don't move goalposts. You said the capacity to feel pain. That starts at eight weeks.

Consciousness is not something most human adults experience very often. It's really not that common. I can tell you are running on a script right now. Smack yourself in the face. BWAP!

There you go. Now you are conscious.

Only human beings have consciousness, and it's not even clear consciousness is anything but a cultural invention that arises from neuroplasticity. You should read some Julian Jaynes.

Nah, these are word games. When I say experience pain, we all know it’s about a conscious experience, that’s why when you’re under anathesia you don’t experience pain, you’re unconscious. So this bicameralism theory is all mush-mouth word games.

And animals in the wild are the most alert, aware beings you’ll see, moreso than most humans.

Well, no, it is not. Animals can experience pain but they lack consciousness. If consciousness is your metric, then eat BBQ. You are golden.

Consciousness is my metric. Animals are obviously conscious. We’ve had this argument before though. Look at the causal structures and analogous behavior. They are not in some primordial dream, they are conscious and experience as we do

[Smitty-48]

The only shit I ever saw go wrong was a plane crash and a fucking F-16 leaking hydrazine and almost getting me killed. Both of those had multiple points of failure from my perspective.

I saw LOTS of potential disasters, but we usually catch them (it takes at least three most of the time).

I was in a helicopter emergency landing, we weren't hurt, but we were low for autorotation, so when the bottom dropped out I thought we might be dead.

[Smitty-48]

That was RCAF training which saved us, that pilot was a stud, we could have easily rolled into a fireball on that one. It was the tail rotor which failed, but somehow he got it down on the skids.