MartyrMade

[GloryofGreece]

One thing we take for granted in the west is our reverence for truth. When I go to Africa or the ME the hardest thing for me is all the lying that goes on. People lie about everything. What they know, what they don't know, where things are, how much stuff costs, what they promise to do and when things are going to happen. lies, lies, lies. And they're not even embarrassed about it.

Individualism, and all the responsibilities and rewards it brings. That is what made us kings. We're always trying to figure stuff out and investigate what makes things work. You can only do that if you lift up truthfulness as the highest virtue. In the far east, they have the constant fear of losing face. To fail in your mission. That has a similar effect but it's not as strong as what we have. They never get full recognition for personal achievements.

Postmodernism is a potentially fatal disease in our culture. It strikes at the core. It's an assault on truth itself. It needs to be burnt out from the body of society.

Low trust societies combined with high time preference (impulsive, lack of planning for the future) etc. are problematic. Eastern Europe / Russia are low trust societies in a lot of ways as well as places like the M.E. and Africa.

I've also read/heard that places were there is a higher rate of cousin marriage which is a direct sign of low trust societies and more clannish behavior with things like so called "honor killings" and such can be graphed geographically. Essentially the closer you get to the Equator the more of cousin marriages you have. But its also an eastern direction going from Western Europe east to Southern and Eastern Europe. Some sociologist/anthropologist suggest that is one cultural cause for the mafia in southern Italy for example.

Fascinating how these characteristics and societal customs play out.

[Hastur]

One thing we take for granted in the west is our reverence for truth. When I go to Africa or the ME the hardest thing for me is all the lying that goes on. People lie about everything. What they know, what they don't know, where things are, how much stuff costs, what they promise to do and when things are going to happen. lies, lies, lies. And they're not even embarrassed about it.

Individualism, and all the responsibilities and rewards it brings. That is what made us kings. We're always trying to figure stuff out and investigate what makes things work. You can only do that if you lift up truthfulness as the highest virtue. In the far east, they have the constant fear of losing face. To fail in your mission. That has a similar effect but it's not as strong as what we have. They never get full recognition for personal achievements.

Postmodernism is a potentially fatal disease in our culture. It strikes at the core. It's an assault on truth itself. It needs to be burnt out from the body of society.

Low trust societies combined with high time preference (impulsive, lack of planning for the future) etc. are problematic. Eastern Europe / Russia are low trust societies in a lot of ways as well as places like the M.E. and Africa.

I've also read/heard that places were there is a higher rate of cousin marriage which is a direct sign of low trust societies and more clannish behavior with things like so called "honor killings" and such can be graphed geographically. Essentially the closer you get to the Equator the more of cousin marriages you have. But its also an eastern direction going from Western Europe east to Southern and Eastern Europe. Some sociologist/anthropologist suggest that is one cultural cause for the mafia in southern Italy for example.

Fascinating how these characteristics and societal customs play out.

Have you looked at the difference between shame culture and guilt culture? It explains a lot.

[GloryofGreece]

One thing we take for granted in the west is our reverence for truth. When I go to Africa or the ME the hardest thing for me is all the lying that goes on. People lie about everything. What they know, what they don't know, where things are, how much stuff costs, what they promise to do and when things are going to happen. lies, lies, lies. And they're not even embarrassed about it.

Individualism, and all the responsibilities and rewards it brings. That is what made us kings. We're always trying to figure stuff out and investigate what makes things work. You can only do that if you lift up truthfulness as the highest virtue. In the far east, they have the constant fear of losing face. To fail in your mission. That has a similar effect but it's not as strong as what we have. They never get full recognition for personal achievements.

Postmodernism is a potentially fatal disease in our culture. It strikes at the core. It's an assault on truth itself. It needs to be burnt out from the body of society.

Low trust societies combined with high time preference (impulsive, lack of planning for the future) etc. are problematic. Eastern Europe / Russia are low trust societies in a lot of ways as well as places like the M.E. and Africa.

I've also read/heard that places were there is a higher rate of cousin marriage which is a direct sign of low trust societies and more clannish behavior with things like so called "honor killings" and such can be graphed geographically. Essentially the closer you get to the Equator the more of cousin marriages you have. But its also an eastern direction going from Western Europe east to Southern and Eastern Europe. Some sociologist/anthropologist suggest that is one cultural cause for the mafia in southern Italy for example.

Fascinating how these characteristics and societal customs play out.

Have you looked at the difference between shame culture and guilt culture? It explains a lot.

What's the gist of it? Seems like the same thing essentially

[heydaralon]

The middle class is a genetic phenomenon. It was the result of genetic adaptations gained in the aristocracy over the course of a thousand years of internecine warfare, and then those genetic adaptations dispersing into the cities and countryside each time collapse occurred and part of the aristocracy was demoted to merchant class or worse. Future planning, putting your children's welfare before your own, etc. is middle class behavior. It's genetic. The rest of humans do not naturally do this. It's just not normal for them. That's not to say they don't love their children. They obviously do. But you are not going to to find many Africans living their lives as if their children's future are the entire purpose of their labor. They have different adaptations entirely. They are tribal. They put their tribe first.

The move from tribalism to non tribal social organization happened in multiple ethnic locations - China, India, the Middle East and Europe roughly in parallel... European civilization achieved a balance of political organization that allowed checks on executive power, institutions that allowed free markets and free speech and effective rule of law... this in and of itself broke the tribal nobility and allowed the rise of the middle class... in fits and starts...

What genetic mechanism out of the 100 or so odd genes that account for human genetic variation are you proposing to explain this dude?

What mechanism are you or Fukuyama proposing that causes social evolution? AFAIK no such mechanism has ever been identified or proposed. This is also why I heavily discount Richard Dawkins Meme theory.

[Speaker to Animals]

It's as if Africa doesn't have access to all the knowledge of how to adapt their culture and social structures to be more like us and advance. Hint: if they could, they would.

[DrYouth]

What mechanism are you or Fukuyama proposing that causes social evolution? AFAIK no such mechanism has ever been identified or proposed. This is also why I heavily discount Richard Dawkins Meme theory.

It's not one simple mechanism.
Essentially he proposes that to abandon tribalism there needs to be much social pressure to move beyond it. The kinship ties of tribalism are strong and the forces needed to rupture them need to be strong.

In a few words I would say the pressure is social pressure... demanding increased human ingenuity promoting more advanced forms of cooperation that require a movement beyond tribal organization. The challenge is in the breaking of the tribal kinship relations in order to allow this.

This required a very strong central bureaucracy in China, a dominant castrated slave society in the Middle East, and the rise of Christianity in Europe with a caste of celibate priests...

Kinship ties are no fooling around to break down.

[Speaker to Animals]

LOL

Why do African people not abandon tribalism in America or even in Europe?

What makes you devalue tribalism as opposed to civic nationalism? Last I checked civic nationalism has about murdered western civilization and resulted in the impending genocide of whites. Tribal people are still kicking, with pretty solid birth rates. A hundred years from now, I doubt there will be many of us, and almost certainly no western civilization, but there will still be a Congo, as fucked up as the place might be to you or me. So which is better?

[heydaralon]

LOL

Why do African people not abandon tribalism in America or even in Europe?

What makes you devalue tribalism as opposed to civic nationalism? Last I checked civic nationalism has about murdered western civilization and resulted in the impending genocide of whites. Tribal people are still kicking, with pretty solid birth rates. A hundred years from now, I doubt there will be many of us, and almost certainly no western civilization, but there will still be a Congo, as fucked up as the place might be to you or me. So which is better?

You do realize that the End of History wasn't printed in Swahili right? Once that edition of it comes out, and the Africans are exposed to his arguments, they will realize that they have been living wrong and begin to change their millenia old culture. Hell, Fukuyama might even end the civil war in the Congo, the same way he prevented the 2003 Iraq war or the rise of Putin, because the question of governance has been settled after 1989.

[DrYouth]

LOL

Why do African people not abandon tribalism in America or even in Europe?

What makes you devalue tribalism as opposed to civic nationalism? Last I checked civic nationalism has about murdered western civilization and resulted in the impending genocide of whites. Tribal people are still kicking, with pretty solid birth rates. A hundred years from now, I doubt there will be many of us, and almost certainly no western civilization, but there will still be a Congo, as fucked up as the place might be to you or me. So which is better?

I'm not devaluing tribalism StA.
I've repeatedly stated that leaving tribalism behind had pros and cons.
Western culture left tribalism behind... that's how it became ascendant... and that is also it's greatest weakness...
It pursued individualism for better and for worse.

That isn't to say there isn't a way forward without regressing to the worst problems of tribalism.
Tribalism also has pros and cons.

Tribalism values kinship and does not believe in the individual.
The individual is not separate from his family and clan.
Tribalism comes with an inherent sense of belonging that our western society cannot fathom.

For the degree of cooperation that western society demanded, i.e. in order to pull off industrialization and the conquest of the globe... tribalism wouldn't cut it. The white race was the race that struck this bargain most completely... and of course we are living with the spoils of this success and the hangover that goes with it... but so is every other race... we have been inclusive in bringing the other races along for the ride and they have been largely happy to do so.. with some understandable gripes about dispossession, slavery and genocide... but despite this they are coming around... other than the addiction, depression and alienation I suppose... but you catch my drift.

[Speaker to Animals]

LOL

Why do African people not abandon tribalism in America or even in Europe?

What makes you devalue tribalism as opposed to civic nationalism? Last I checked civic nationalism has about murdered western civilization and resulted in the impending genocide of whites. Tribal people are still kicking, with pretty solid birth rates. A hundred years from now, I doubt there will be many of us, and almost certainly no western civilization, but there will still be a Congo, as fucked up as the place might be to you or me. So which is better?

I'm not devaluing tribalism StA.
I've repeatedly stated that leaving tribalism behind had pros and cons.
Western culture left tribalism behind... that's how it became ascendant... and that is also it's greatest weakness...
It pursued individualism for better and for worse.

That isn't to say there isn't a way forward without regressing to the worst problems of tribalism.
Tribalism also has pros and cons.

Tribalism values kinship and does not believe in the individual.
The individual is not separate from his family and clan.
Tribalism comes with an inherent sense of belonging that our western society cannot fathom.

For the degree of cooperation that western society demanded, i.e. in order to pull off industrialization and the conquest of the globe... tribalism wouldn't cut it. The white race was the race that struck this bargain most completely... and of course we are living with the spoils of this success and the hangover that goes with it... but so is every other race... we have been inclusive in bringing the other races along for the ride and they have been largely happy to do so.. with some understandable gripes about dispossession, slavery and genocide... but despite this they are coming around... other than the addiction, depression and alienation I suppose... but you catch my drift.

Western culture did not abandon tribalism. Some Europeans developed separate genetic adaptations.

You don't just adopt some civic nationalism ideology and lose tribalism. If that were true, blacks would not all be tribal literally everywhere they live in large numbers. Blacks in London are not very different from blacks in Chicago in terms of tribalism. Both groups are obviously westerners. Both groups are obviously tribal. It's not culture.