Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

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Fife
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by Fife » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:10 pm

C-Mag wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:58 pm
Fife wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:34 pm
C-Mag wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:43 am
I'm a Classic Liberal, so I think the government only has a few jobs, primary amongst them is security.
So, for me, if they are legally not bound to protect me, how much do I really need them at all ?
Your security is not a public good, I'm afraid, Carlus. Where did you get the notion that it was somehow?

It's about as settled as settled gets, in fact.

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasl ... ction.html
From the notion that Government is responsible for the defense of the nation and security of its citizens.
While not necessarily true, they sure imply that's what they are there for.

I just want the lie to be an open fact.
I wasn't trying to be harsh on a classical liberal; I promise you that.

Does anyone think there is a viable legal option to sue the federal government for injury caused on 9/11/2001?

brewster
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by brewster » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:25 pm

C-Mag wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:29 pm
brewster wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:23 pm
Don't you think this issue is really about the line between providing security and guaranteeing security?
No.

In the Parkland case, it was reasonable to assume that an armed Broward County Police Officer at the site of violence at a school, where he was stationed. React to protect the children in the school. He did not, he hid, took care of his own safety, ensuring he went home at night.

Further, I would submit it is irresponsible of parents to turn their kids over to a school who is not responsible for taking care of the safety of that child. If I turned my kids over to a hobo in the street who seemed like a nice guy and was going to teach my kids things I could have my kids taken away.
But you're addressing the last part of my post that you snipped. The Deputy did malfunction. So there's an argument for his liability. But lets say he did not, died doing his job, and the kids died anyway. We can conclude the security as designed was inadequate. But do we really want to create incentives for schools to create foolproof 100% security? Can you imagine what that would look like? Take TSA and ramp it up 10x. As a society we don't do that, and freedom lovers like everyone here would say it's the 1st step to a general police state.

We accept the risk of houses, cars, guns, skiing, whatever. Statistically your teen is safer in school than in their car. You're safer in a plane than in your car. Basically you're safer anywhere but in your car, but everyone drives and feels like they're in control. It's the lack of the perception of personal control that drives people buggy about planes, schools, whatever.
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND

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Fife
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by Fife » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:36 pm

brewster wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:25 pm
C-Mag wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:29 pm
brewster wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:23 pm
Don't you think this issue is really about the line between providing security and guaranteeing security?
No.

In the Parkland case, it was reasonable to assume that an armed Broward County Police Officer at the site of violence at a school, where he was stationed. React to protect the children in the school. He did not, he hid, took care of his own safety, ensuring he went home at night.

Further, I would submit it is irresponsible of parents to turn their kids over to a school who is not responsible for taking care of the safety of that child. If I turned my kids over to a hobo in the street who seemed like a nice guy and was going to teach my kids things I could have my kids taken away.
But you're addressing the last part of my post that you snipped. The Deputy did malfunction. So there's an argument for his liability. But lets say he did not, died doing his job, and the kids died anyway. We can conclude the security as designed was inadequate. But do we really want to create incentives for schools to create foolproof 100% security? Can you imagine what that would look like? Take TSA and ramp it up 10x. As a society we don't do that, and freedom lovers like everyone here would say it's the 1st step to a general police state.

We accept the risk of houses, cars, guns, skiing, whatever. Statistically your teen is safer in school than in their car. You're safer in a plane than in your car. Basically you're safer anywhere but in your car, but everyone drives and feels like they're in control. It's the lack of the perception of personal control that drives people buggy about planes, schools, whatever.
Are you suffering under the delusion that Broward County, Florida, and/or the federal government has ANY legal liability for the deputy's "malfunction" or the government's "security as designed?"

Does anyone here have even the slightest idea that governmental legal liability is in play?

brewster
Posts: 1848
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by brewster » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:25 pm

Fife wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:36 pm
Are you suffering under the delusion that Broward County, Florida, and/or the federal government has ANY legal liability for the deputy's "malfunction" or the government's "security as designed?"

Does anyone here have even the slightest idea that governmental legal liability is in play?
If you read my post I'm actually arguing the opposite, that Govt is not liable, since perfect security is unattainable, though perhaps its employees are if they fail to competently implement the designed level of security. If an officer publicly stood and watched you get beaten, don't you think you could sue him? Police are sued all the time, it's just usually hard to win. But if someone had video of a cop standing there watching a beating doing nothing, that's a pretty good case. So, what if there were a school metal detector, but the guard didn't bother turning it on? Is there no accountability anywhere in your view?
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND

nmoore63
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by nmoore63 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:27 am

Cops on video planting drugs.
Prosecutor refuses to prosecute.

https://newsone.com/3840523/nypd-cops-p ... ver-video/

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Fife
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by Fife » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:44 am

brewster wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:25 pm
Fife wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:36 pm
Are you suffering under the delusion that Broward County, Florida, and/or the federal government has ANY legal liability for the deputy's "malfunction" or the government's "security as designed?"

Does anyone here have even the slightest idea that governmental legal liability is in play?
If you read my post I'm actually arguing the opposite, that Govt is not liable, since perfect security is unattainable, though perhaps its employees are if they fail to competently implement the designed level of security. If an officer publicly stood and watched you get beaten, don't you think you could sue him? Police are sued all the time, it's just usually hard to win. But if someone had video of a cop standing there watching a beating doing nothing, that's a pretty good case. So, what if there were a school metal detector, but the guard didn't bother turning it on? Is there no accountability anywhere in your view?
Consider the difference in suing an individual officer (and his limited assets/earning capacity for payment of damages) and suing a governmental entity (and its unlimited assets available for payment of damages).

The government enjoys sovereign immunity and the protection of Governmental Tort Liability Acts.

Individual officers enjoy qualified immunity, which is a legal fiction dreamed up by government judges. https://martinhash.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=3462

Plaintiffs' lawyers have to face that problem in advising clients about why their case is not attractive to the plaintiffs' bar every single day.

A cop, or an entire department, leaves you to fend for yourself against known and identifiable threats? Sucks to be you.

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DBTrek
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by DBTrek » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:46 am

nmoore63 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:27 am
Cops on video planting drugs.
Prosecutor refuses to prosecute.

https://newsone.com/3840523/nypd-cops-p ... ver-video/
Damn, minorities even corner the market on fake crimes.
:twisted:
"Hey varmints, don't mess with a guy that's riding a buffalo"

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:55 am

nmoore63 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:27 am
Cops on video planting drugs.
Prosecutor refuses to prosecute.

https://newsone.com/3840523/nypd-cops-p ... ver-video/
As an aside to those who were defending the bail system from reform a few weeks ago:
Kuyateh, who was 19 at the time, was arrested and spent two weeks in jail before making bail. A criminal court judge dismissed the charges in October during pre-trial hearings over the gap in the police body camera video.
That is how bail is used to force innocent people to plead guilty.

This kid was 19, so he could afford to wait it out. Imagine you have a small business and children to feed. If you maintain your innocence, you could lose your entire livelihood. They know that. That is why judges and prosecutors use bail to secure convictions.

nmoore63
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by nmoore63 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:18 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:55 am


As an aside to those who were defending the bail system from reform a few weeks ago:
Kuyateh, who was 19 at the time, was arrested and spent two weeks in jail before making bail. A criminal court judge dismissed the charges in October during pre-trial hearings over the gap in the police body camera video.
That is how bail is used to force innocent people to plead guilty.

This kid was 19, so he could afford to wait it out. Imagine you have a small business and children to feed. If you maintain your innocence, you could lose your entire livelihood. They know that. That is why judges and prosecutors use bail to secure convictions.
+1

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DBTrek
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Re: Government has divorced itself from responsibility to protect Citizens

Post by DBTrek » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:06 am

Or . . . you know . .. you can pay 10% of your bail, get bonded out, and have your day in court.
There's an entire industry built around providing people bail money so they can get out and move on with their lives until their court date.

The other option is to not set bail at all, and just keep everyone in jail until their court date. That doesn't strike me as a better solution. Or - you know, we could jail nobody and just expect the rapist, murderers, drug dealers, and gang leaders to appear in court when we tell them to.

/shrug
"Hey varmints, don't mess with a guy that's riding a buffalo"