Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[SuburbanFarmer]

Solar power depends entirely on battery technology. Which is (of course) being suppressed by pretty much everybody.

[Otern]

An electric car charged with power from coal is still cleaner than a fossil fuel car due to the efficiency of scale.

No.

I don't think people realize just how dirty coal is, compared to gasoline. Even with 100% efficiency in the power production, and no loss in the electric grid, coal would still have many times the carbon footprint of gasoline.

Think of it this way. Coal is carbon. It has no hydrogen atoms. So all energy comes from transformation from carbon, to CO2. Meanwhile, gasoline consists of hydrocarbon chains, longer than natural gas, so more dirty than that, but still plenty of hydrogen atoms. So most of the combustion gases is water. Still a lot of CO2 for every kWh, but way, way less than carbon.

The ratio in energy produced to CO2 released during combustion is about half as much with coal as it's with gasoline. So just the combustion itself is already way dirtier. But then we haven't added in losses in energy transformation to electricity.

The most efficient coal plants in the world is around 42%. The average in modern coal power is around 37%, and that's damn good. So they already lose 60% before the energy reach the grid. The energy loss in electrical grids depend on the range. But on average it's between 8-15%, and it goes up if we try to make energy transfer between great distances easier due to economics (one of the core points about EU's energy directives).
Then you have losses in transferring that energy to the batteries of a car. Another 12-36% loss in simply charging.
Then there's mechanical loss. Same with diesel and gasoline here though. So disregard that.

According to my calculations so far, using those numbers with a pro coal/electric bias a diesel car with the same weight and mechanical efficiency of an electric car will emit about 5% as much CO2 as a coal charged electric car for every mile.

Could stop there. But it's even worse. We haven't taken into account the production of coal, vs the production of oil. And we haven't taken into account the mining that goes on to extract rare earth minerals necessary to make those high tech batteries in electric cars.

The energy density of coal is way lower than that of oil. And it can't be transported through efficient pipelines. You need to transport more, for lower energy output. So you need to use more energy in its transportation. These are not as easy calculations, so I can't give an accurate number off the top of my head. But here too, coal is way worse for the environment than oil.


At some point in the future, we need to transition to electric cars, this is true. But more importantly, we need to make the electrical grid independent from fossil fuels, or the CO2 emissions will be way worse than they are now. An electric car run by water power, or even nuclear power, can have low CO2 emissions. But electrical cars for the environment's sake, make no fucking sense if the electrical grid is dependent on coal, as it is in Europe and China.

[Montegriffo]

The UK is no longer reliant on coal for electricity generation. We had days this summer where no coal at all was burnt to produce power and renewable energy made up over half of production, gas and nuclear making up the rest.
I don't agree with your CO2 per mile figures. There are plenty of sources which say the opposite due to the economies of scale. Take into account the clean energy for power production and the city centre emissions from fossil fuels make electric cars the best option already and improvements in electric cars and batteries are coming along all the time.

[The Conservative]

I would rather take coal than deal with the fallout of lithium mining for batteries.

[Otern]

The UK is no longer reliant on coal for electricity generation. We had days this summer where no coal at all was burnt to produce power and renewable energy made up over half of production, gas and nuclear making up the rest.
I don't agree with your CO2 per mile figures. There are plenty of sources which say the opposite due to the economies of scale. Take into account the clean energy for power production and the city centre emissions from fossil fuels make electric cars the best option already and improvements in electric cars and batteries are coming along all the time.

We're all using coal for power production, since we have a common energy market with the EU. A quarter of the electric energy in the EU, is coal. Norway is "not reliant on coal", and 100% renewable energy officially. But we sell water power to Germany when it's affordable, and buy coal power back when the reservoirs are running low.

Please show me a scientific source which address the issues of energy conversion and CO2 emissions relating to coal, where coal looks better than anything else. There's not a single scientist worth his salt claiming coal is in any way more environmentally friendly than anything else. Plenty of economists though, because coal is cheap, and it's easy to make power plants running on it.

Also, the more conversions, the more loss. A car running directly on coal, will release less CO2 than a car running on electricity produced only by a coal power plant. Believe me or not, but the laws of thermodynamics don't lie.

[Speaker to Animals]

Electric cars are actually worse for the environment all around.

It is true about the power production that runs them as has been stated. Also, just the process of manufacturing them is worse for the environment.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/scien ... efits1.htm


Like pretty much everything progressive, buying electric cars and penalizing the more environmentally friendly alternatives is pure virtue signalling by ignorant NPC urbanites.

That is not to say that electric cars are bad. Just that, if your motivation is environmentalism, then you are fucking retarded for buying one. If, however, your motivation is to transition your nation from oil dependency, then they are good options. You still have to couple that policy with something like a strong nuclear energy program (maybe a shit ton of thorium reactors when they become viable), and major public investments in infrastructure.


Using punitive taxes is for total cunts, though. If you have to take that route, then you should not be in the government business due to manifest incompetency

[Otern]

Electric cars are actually worse for the environment all around.

It is true about the power production that runs them as has been stated. Also, just the process of manufacturing them is worse for the environment.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/scien ... efits1.htm


Like pretty much everything progressive, buying electric cars and penalizing the more environmentally friendly alternatives is pure virtue signalling by ignorant NPC urbanites.

That is not to say that electric cars are bad. Just that, if your motivation is environmentalism, then you are fucking retarded for buying one. If, however, your motivation is to transition your nation from oil dependency, then they are good options. You still have to couple that policy with something like a strong nuclear energy program (maybe a shit ton of thorium reactors when they become viable), and major public investments in infrastructure.


Using punitive taxes is for total cunts, though. If you have to take that route, then you should not be in the government business due to manifest incompetency

Wouldn't say they're worse for the environment all around. They're worse than conventional cars at this moment, mainly due to power production, and secondarily due to manufacturing those cars in the first place.

But they can be more environmentally friendly in the future, if we can have an efficient and fully fossil fuel independent electrical grid. For example 100% renewable, and maybe some nuclear, without any carbon based fossil fuels in the grid, would make electric cars pretty great compared to diesel and gasoline.

[Speaker to Animals]

They are worse because there really is no way to power an industrial nation on renewable energy, and these same envirodummies block the transition to nuclear. This is why allegedly "green" nations need to import power from coal or build nuclear power.

The manufacturing process is demonstrably worse for the environment than the manufacturing process of gasoline automobiles.

Nowhere in the world are electric cars better for the environment for this reason.

I think they are a good idea for the sake of energy independence, though.

[Montegriffo]

Electric cars are actually worse for the environment all around.

It is true about the power production that runs them as has been stated. Also, just the process of manufacturing them is worse for the environment.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/scien ... efits1.htm


Like pretty much everything progressive, buying electric cars and penalizing the more environmentally friendly alternatives is pure virtue signalling by ignorant NPC urbanites.

That is not to say that electric cars are bad. Just that, if your motivation is environmentalism, then you are fucking retarded for buying one. If, however, your motivation is to transition your nation from oil dependency, then they are good options. You still have to couple that policy with something like a strong nuclear energy program (maybe a shit ton of thorium reactors when they become viable), and major public investments in infrastructure.


Using punitive taxes is for total cunts, though. If you have to take that route, then you should not be in the government business due to manifest incompetency

Wouldn't say they're worse for the environment all around. They're worse than conventional cars at this moment, mainly due to power production, and secondarily due to manufacturing those cars in the first place.

But they can be more environmentally friendly in the future, if we can have an efficient and fully fossil fuel independent electrical grid. For example 100% renewable, and maybe some nuclear, without any carbon based fossil fuels in the grid, would make electric cars pretty great compared to diesel and gasoline.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

[Zlaxer]

They are worse because there really is no way to power an industrial nation on renewable energy, and these same envirodummies block the transition to nuclear. This is why allegedly "green" nations need to import power from coal or build nuclear power.

The manufacturing process is demonstrably worse for the environment than the manufacturing process of gasoline automobiles.

Nowhere in the world are electric cars better for the environment for this reason.

I think they are a good idea for the sake of energy independence, though.

Not enough rare earth metals for 10 Billion Proles to own cars....In theory, electric cars powered by fusion plants would be ideal....better find environmentally friendly battery technology.

Real solution is to reduce world population - WE DO NOT NEED 10+Billion people at this point in our development....yes it will crash our ponzi crone-capitalist systems...but they're crashing already...

What will surban liberal do when they're pillaged by billions of illiterate, poor and desperate Africans (from Africa) in the next 50 years? - this may or may not happen depending on whether Africa can slow down its dangerous population growth....

Natural law man will rape a white liberal women if he wants to...and the women will not be able to stop it....what happens then?