Protestant Revolt: Source for good & ill of Modernity

[Montegriffo]

There is a reason I am called "the oracle" and "the great one." My mind has predictive power few will even begin to recognize, and fewer still will surpass. I predicted the housing market crisis in 2009, and by 2017 I knew Trump would be in the oval office. Bragging is gauche. I let my many important ideas and theories speak for themselves. You're welcome.

Do you know why Okee and Smitty left this forum?

Okee is serving time for animal rights violations.

[TheReal_ND]

Tactical assault donkey

[Speaker to Animals]

True story

[GloryofGreece]

Brutalities of Thirty Years War. Mass graves.
https://www.livescience.com/59302-germa ... ealed.html

Pretty good "quora" blog
https://www.quora.com/Which-sides-carri ... -Years-War

[GloryofGreece]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW_ICHu ... yQGqyMLyey

Good concise overview

[heydaralon]

What are the reasons for that fascination for you?

Creation of the modern nation state via Westphalia. Large scale civilian deaths and torture. Probably 8 million died in Germany alone. Military innovations and leaders like Gustavus Adolphus. Defenestation of prague(throwing dudes out of windows into the mud). You see a fundamental change in Western culture after this conflict. Basically the financial ruin of Europe. This is one of the biggest events in modern history (post middle ages) that literally no one knows anything about.

I get those thing and they are significant. I guess i just saw it as a chunk of the fallout of the Protestant Revolt just like Henry VIII , the Dutch, and so on. Were the main "winners" ...France and Britain since Catholicism, Spain, and Germany were fucked?

To clarify a bit what I mean is that Britain and France were on the rise afterwards b/c Span and Central Europe were depleted of blood and treasure as a consequence of the Dutch Revolt, Thirty Years War, and Protestantism.

Well, you can certainly view it as a chunk in the long history of the Reformation/Religious wars, but it was such a huge event that it deserves consideration on its own, the same way that WW2 is part of the 20th century but it was a game changer.

The war really fucked up the Holy Roman Empire and Spain also did not fare well. After Westphalia, Spain lost another war with the French and basically ceased being a serious player in Euro politics, in a large part because of their losses from 1618-1648. France won a victory of sorts I suppose, but they also paid a huge price for it. I believe the Dutch also did pretty decent. In my opinion, I think the Protestants did a bit better than the Catholics.

If you are interested in this period of time, check out the Thirty Years War by CV Wedgwood. It is a bit of a slog at times because of all the different players, but a very good read. I listened to the audiobook.

Peter Wilson wrote this 1000 page book about the conflict, which I haven't read, but I really want to. Just don't have the time.

[GloryofGreece]

Creation of the modern nation state via Westphalia. Large scale civilian deaths and torture. Probably 8 million died in Germany alone. Military innovations and leaders like Gustavus Adolphus. Defenestation of prague(throwing dudes out of windows into the mud). You see a fundamental change in Western culture after this conflict. Basically the financial ruin of Europe. This is one of the biggest events in modern history (post middle ages) that literally no one knows anything about.

I get those thing and they are significant. I guess i just saw it as a chunk of the fallout of the Protestant Revolt just like Henry VIII , the Dutch, and so on. Were the main "winners" ...France and Britain since Catholicism, Spain, and Germany were fucked?

To clarify a bit what I mean is that Britain and France were on the rise afterwards b/c Span and Central Europe were depleted of blood and treasure as a consequence of the Dutch Revolt, Thirty Years War, and Protestantism.

Well, you can certainly view it as a chunk in the long history of the Reformation/Religious wars, but it was such a huge event that it deserves consideration on its own, the same way that WW2 is part of the 20th century but it was a game changer.

The war really fucked up the Holy Roman Empire and Spain also did not fare well. After Westphalia, Spain lost another war with the French and basically ceased being a serious player in Euro politics, in a large part because of their losses from 1618-1648. France won a victory of sorts I suppose, but they also paid a huge price for it. I believe the Dutch also did pretty decent. In my opinion, I think the Protestants did a bit better than the Catholics.

If you are interested in this period of time, check out the Thirty Years War by CV Wedgwood. It is a bit of a slog at times because of all the different players, but a very good read. I listened to the audiobook.

Peter Wilson wrote this 1000 page book about the conflict, which I haven't read, but I really want to. Just don't have the time.

I always take the long view or broad strokes way of looking at history. Bad and good to that.

I think what "lost" was religion and a counter balancing act to politics if anything and yeah Spain was crippled so by relation so was Catholicism as a whole. France decided to be Machiavellian and really the modern nation was formed b/c of Cardinal Richelieu with all the irony that entails.

What do you think about these novels (even though im guessing you haven't read them)
I ask b/c im looking for a more personal story revolving around the time period and area not a textbook history or even a narrative history. Something more individualized like a biography or novel i suppose.
https://www.amazon.com/Hope-Ages-Past-N ... +war+novel


https://www.amazon.com/People-Book-Nove ... +war+novel

[GloryofGreece]

True story?
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/general ... arswar/11/

[GloryofGreece]

Good series of lectures on the history of Christianity. Good topic selections.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZSyuh7 ... azi_TG7hRD