Revolutions

[DrYouth]

Finished Duncan's French Revolution series...
Definitely on my top 10 podcast series of all time list!

Now into the Haitian Revolution.
Duncan is awesome at putting the revolutions up side by side so we can see the cross fertilization of all these events.

Big Whites, Little whites, Coloureds and Blacks all jockeying for position.... and courting France against the dominant group... whoever that dominant group happens to be.... and this changes with lightning speed as the revolution evolves...
Then factor in the Spanish, British and Americans....
Political intrigue... history beats fiction.... no one pulls this shit off like Duncan.

[clubgop]

Finished Duncan's French Revolution series...
Definitely on my top 10 podcast series of all time list!

Now into the Haitian Revolution.
Duncan is awesome at putting the revolutions up side by side so we can see the cross fertilization of all these events.

Big Whites, Little whites, Coloureds and Blacks all jockeying for position.... and courting France against the dominant group... whoever that dominant group happens to be.... and this changes with lightning speed as the revolution evolves...
Then factor in the Spanish, British and Americans....
Political intrigue... history beats fiction.... no one pulls this shit off like Duncan.

Just finished his wrap up of all the 1848 revolutions.

[DrYouth]

I thought I would post a thought based on Revolutions.

Let us take a moment to consider the character embodied by the "liberal noble".

This character makes it's first major appearance in the French Revolution.
Many of these characters meet their demise as the revolution rolls on.
They also appear in the Haitian Revolution... many meeting a similar fate.

These nobles are invigorated by the ideals of the Enlightenment and renounce their privilege in what appears to be a most self sacrificing way... I believe many of them were well intentioned, but ultimately they were naïve.

Those "liberated" by the nobles go on to tear them apart.

The ideal that all should be equal meets the problem that all are not equal...

Those liberated did not share the naive ideals of their liberators... they have not achieved the moral vantage point to have such ideals.
Once given power they are not inclined to share it as their liberators were...
The liberal nobles didn't grasp that those they are liberating had not reached the stage of development that they had.... and therefore were not in fact the moral equals that they naively believe them to be... and they paid the price...

It is a tragic figure the liberal noble... advanced perhaps.... but not advanced enough.... "advanced" in the naïve way that many progressives are today.
Especially the progressives inclined to "liberate" the "oppressed" muslim world.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I thought I would post a thought based on Revolutions.

Let us take a moment to consider the character embodied by the "liberal noble".

This character makes it's first major appearance in the French Revolution.
Many of these characters meet their demise as the revolution rolls on.
They also appear in the Haitian Revolution... many meeting a similar fate.

These nobles are invigorated by the ideals of the Enlightenment and renounce their privilege in what appears to be a most self sacrificing way... I believe many of them were well intentioned, but ultimately they were naïve.

Those "liberated" by the nobles go on to tear them apart.

The ideal that all should be equal meets the problem that all are not equal...

Those liberated did not share the naive ideals of their liberators... they have not achieved the moral vantage point to have such ideals.
Once given power they are not inclined to share it as their liberators were...
The liberal nobles didn't grasp that those they are liberating had not reached the stage of development that they had.... and therefore were not in fact the moral equals that they naively believe them to be... and they paid the price...

It is a tragic figure the liberal noble... advanced perhaps.... but not advanced enough.... "advanced" in the naïve way that many progressives are today.
Especially the progressives inclined to "liberate" the "oppressed" muslim world.

That's a tricky line of thinking...

How could the Savages ever have reached the stage of development needed to have that moral view, while remaining under the thumb of the nobles?

[Speaker to Animals]

Huge mistake. All the greatest trim was had in rescuing high-born ladies.

[DrYouth]

That's a tricky line of thinking...

How could the Savages ever have reached the stage of development needed to have that moral view, while remaining under the thumb of the nobles?

Bingo!

It wasn't possible for the most part... other than some of the bourgeoisie...
That's where the naivete comes in.

"Hey, lets hand the project over to this group of our "equals" who have had no chance of becoming our equals..."

This is the contradiction at the heart of the project...

And the many of the liberal nobles learned this from Madam La Guillotine.
In Haiti many learned it when they were murdered by the blacks that they had helped liberate.

Currently the German "liberal nobles" may be learning this from the millions of refugees flooding their country.

[SuburbanFarmer]

That's a tricky line of thinking...

How could the Savages ever have reached the stage of development needed to have that moral view, while remaining under the thumb of the nobles?

Bingo!

It wasn't possible for the most part... other than some of the bourgeoisie...
That's where the naivete comes in.

"Hey, lets hand the project over to this group of our "equals" who have had no chance of becoming our equals..."

This is the contradiction at the heart of the project...

And the many of the liberal nobles learned this from Madam La Guillotine.
In Haiti many learned it when they were murdered by the blacks that they had helped liberate.

Currently the German "liberal nobles" may be learning this from the millions of refugees flooding their country.

Well, you seem to be making a case for permanent colonialism. How else does the colonial power withdraw, without wheeling out the machetes?

[TheReal_ND]

Permanent colonolialism. China is the colonial master of Africa now. They will be far less forgiving than Western Europeans were. And fuck Western Europe for betraying Rhodesia, which in fact was an extremely fair and level state created by Western Europeans which also helped Africans far more than Mugabe ever could.

[GloryofGreece]

There's no real ease into freedom. You either have it or you don't. Equality under the law not equality in all things. That is all. One of the mistakes or naivete of the Enlightenment was the idea of the "blank slate". Nothing and no one is built completely from social conditioning. Its the whole nurture / nature thing of course. Some people are more intelligent, some more artist, some more beautiful etc. etc. etc.

[DrYouth]

Well, you seem to be making a case for permanent colonialism. How else does the colonial power withdraw, without wheeling out the machetes?

I'm actually doing no such thing...

I am merely observing that a naïve approach to liberty and "liberation" has repeatedly been catastrophic.
Understanding that those being liberated have often not achieved the vantage point of the liberator is a degree of wisdom beyond the naïve idea that "equality" is an unvarnished good and the expectation that this generosity will be reciprocated in kind...

What I am not advocating is continued oppression where it exists but a wiser approach to the disenfranchised that sets the conditions for their empowerment while not setting up the system for wild destabilizing swings... such as flooding a nation with migrants from the third world... or allowing the wholesale dispossession and murder of an elite class...

The naïve liberal noble is a tragic figure that makes repeat appearances in history... is it any wonder that their naïve cries are met with skepticism and distrust.