The Enlightenment - roll it back or forward?

[SuburbanFarmer]

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

No, dude. It's totally fallacious.

A spreadsheet is a product of intelligent design. According to the materialist view, intelligence itself was the product of blind evolution. If humans were like spreadsheets, then somebody designed us.

As for the rest of this.. we are NOT outside of any normal evolutionary process right now. We still evolve even now. Nor are we directing it. We try, but we fuck that up every time.

No other species is able to fully reason. At least not on the this planet.

And you still did not address your earlier contradiction. If religion is just an evolutionary adaptation, but the subject of religion is necessarily false, then you cannot subsequently claim that evolution necessarily leads you to know the truth about anything. Maybe it does and maybe it does not. But if you claim it did not in at least the case of human religiosity, then you cannot then claim you necessarily know the truth about anything.

We are no longer impacted by natural selection, or ANY selective process, except perhaps some remaining viral pressure. That’s completely outside of normal evolutionary processes.

Other animals can certainly reason. They simply can’t philosophize and think abstractly, because they’re busy surviving. We’ve developed a huge number of mental abilities simply by being outside of that pressure.

I never claimed that religion was a result of evolution. It’s a byproduct of our ability to think abstractly, and was a necessary control mechanism for early societies.

Dolphins don’t need a reason for thunderstorms (presumably), but we did.

[Okeefenokee]

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

I certainly hope you’re right, and that we manage to contact someone else before it’s too late.

Sometimes, I think that’s the only way out of this trap that we’ve built

It's fucking sad watching two grown men act like emotional little girls.

[SuburbanFarmer]

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

I certainly hope you’re right, and that we manage to contact someone else before it’s too late.

Sometimes, I think that’s the only way out of this trap that we’ve built

It's fucking sad watching two grown men act like emotional little girls.

So much wasted potential.

[DrYouth]

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

You don't transcend the natural world by getting outside of it.
You transcend it by including it and taking it to its highest potential.
No other creature has acquired the degree of self awareness that humans possess, that we are aware of...
We have transcended nature more than any other creature on earth and that brings with it enormous responsibility.
This is a heavy burden to carry.

All of this is an ongoing process of evolution.
We are not outside of the selection process and we are not outside the laws of nature... all of this is a manifestation of spirit unfolding.

Pretty awesome.

[jediuser598]

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

You don't transcend the natural world by getting outside of it.
You transcend it by including it and taking it to its highest potential.
No other creature has acquired the degree of self awareness that humans possess, that we are aware of...
We have transcended nature more than any other creature on earth and that brings with it enormous responsibility.
This is a heavy burden to carry.

All of this is an ongoing process of evolution.
We are not outside of the selection process and we are not outside the laws of nature... all of this is a manifestation of spirit unfolding.

Pretty awesome.

At some point you have to either prove, or make a compelling case that free will exists.

Manifestation of spirit? Define spirit. You mean like a soul or some supernatural energy?

[Speaker to Animals]

The universe is nondeterministic. Next issue.

[GloryofGreece]

The universe is nondeterministic. Next issue.

[jediuser598]

The universe is nondeterministic. Next issue.

No free will != Determinism

[Speaker to Animals]

The universe is nondeterministic. Next issue.

No free will != Determinism

Nondeterminism means you have free will. It means we cannot predict based on prior events what you are going to do given any stimuli with certainty. If we had no free will, then all our decisions should be completely predictable. Alas, not even a fucking electron is deterministic and totally predictable. Free will is encoded in the very universe down to the quanta.

[Zlaxer]

If everything we are is simply evolution, then so is everything we do.

Correct.

Finally - he gets it.