The Enlightenment - roll it back or forward?

[jediuser598]

People did not have the time to be depressed because thye had to work the fields 24/7. I take my chances now.

I agree...
I believe that we are better off in a postmodern world...
There are greater opportunities, there are broader horizons...

But there is also a far wider disparity of vision between those stuck at the lowest levels of moral emotional development and those at the highest...
And there is almost no recognition of this disparity, everyone is equal remember?

So there is nothing to be done, nothing to aspire to (other than materialism).... only massive frustration.... little community, and precious little to sustain soul and spirit.

Going backwards to the common ground of the past where we were in greater harmony with one another but lived short and violent lives is not my choice of path.... but the harmony side of things is appealing....

There's always war.

[jediuser598]

So I think most in this thread agree that our modern age has lost touch with spiritual values...
That much of what is celebrated is in fact degenerate behaviour.
Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism... all of these have taken centre stage
There seems no agreed upon spiritual path and many dismiss spirituality altogether.
What passes for spirituality is largely fad based and flavour of the month.

Wilber makes a serious study of this and finds consensus among the spiritual paths of the wisdom traditions... he has some pretty interesting observations to make about spiritual development and how this has come off the rails in our postmodern age.

Seems hubris to believe that we're in touch with the all powerful ruler of the universe and that he takes an interest in our daily lives. Not only an interest, but a close interest. He's supposed to be our best friend, our father. The universe is incomprehensibly large, and yet, the ruler of all of that is our father? We are his children?

But it seems our body needs spiritualism as much as it needs people. We suck at being lonely, we're social creatures, perhaps we're spiritual creatures as well. (or rather creatures that tend to want to believe in spirituality) otherwise we're miserable.

There's this feeling that the universe is not enough, because in that universe without spirituality, well we're not all that special. We're just grains of sand on a near infinite beach. Is there not a need within the human mind to feel special? Or is it just the western mind?

Or is it that we need to at least feel part of something that is larger than ourselves, but also that we agree with and we're part of that force that is making the world a better place. All of those things you listed "Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism" are all individual. If we were instead to put that on a national scale, like this: "Acquisition of things money for my country, [don't know about lust on a national scale], do what is best for my country, acquisition of things formy country, my country wins accolades" then suddenly those are good things, even if they're at the expense of other countries. Then suddenly we have all that we need to be happy.

You know, perhaps if we killed off these ethical philosophers they'd stop making us feel bad about national pride/prosperity, our problems would be solved.

[Okeefenokee]

It doesn't really make sense to try to compare past to present in a competition of which was "better", or which was "worse"...
Obviously life spans have lengthened and rates of violence have decreased...
But rates of loneliness, depression and mental health disturbance have likely increased.

So would you rather live a short and violent life or a long and depressing one...

It's a suckers choice.

There is no going backwards in time at any rate.... recapturing the nostalgic past is a fools quest...

But perhaps the future could be less lonely and depressing....

There's another option you're forgetting.

[Okeefenokee]

Let's just have the Soddom and Gomorrah without the forced anal sex and maybe God won't punish us this time around.

This.

[DrYouth]

Let's just have the Soddom and Gomorrah without the forced anal sex and maybe God won't punish us this time around.

This.

What... waiting for the collapse of the system.
Meh... that's kinda passive for my tastes.

And what takes it's place?
Just passively wait and see?

[Okeefenokee]

Let's just have the Soddom and Gomorrah without the forced anal sex and maybe God won't punish us this time around.

This.

What... waiting for the collapse of the system.
Meh... that's kinda passive for my tastes.

And what takes it's place?
Just passively wait and see?

That's not what it means.

It's weird how folks are so wired against recognizing the consequences of their actions that they can't see who's responsible for all of this.

[DrYouth]

Seems hubris to believe that we're in touch with the all powerful ruler of the universe and that he takes an interest in our daily lives. Not only an interest, but a close interest. He's supposed to be our best friend, our father. The universe is incomprehensibly large, and yet, the ruler of all of that is our father? We are his children?

But it seems our body needs spiritualism as much as it needs people. We suck at being lonely, we're social creatures, perhaps we're spiritual creatures as well. (or rather creatures that tend to want to believe in spirituality) otherwise we're miserable.

There's this feeling that the universe is not enough, because in that universe without spirituality, well we're not all that special. We're just grains of sand on a near infinite beach. Is there not a need within the human mind to feel special? Or is it just the western mind?

Or is it that we need to at least feel part of something that is larger than ourselves, but also that we agree with and we're part of that force that is making the world a better place. All of those things you listed "Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism" are all individual. If we were instead to put that on a national scale, like this: "Acquisition of things money for my country, [don't know about lust on a national scale], do what is best for my country, acquisition of things formy country, my country wins accolades" then suddenly those are good things, even if they're at the expense of other countries. Then suddenly we have all that we need to be happy.

You know, perhaps if we killed off these ethical philosophers they'd stop making us feel bad about national pride/prosperity, our problems would be solved.

A national identity is a few steps more broad and inclusive than an individual egotistical identity certainly.

And a universe reduced to rational materialism is most certainly an abstract and empty place to live.

No reason to feel bad about national pride and prosperity any more than one should feel bad about individual pride and prosperity... but making either one of these the only goal that should be achieved at any cost is of course limited in it's moral scope... and ultimately self defeating.

[DrYouth]

That's not what it means.

It's weird how folks are so wired against recognizing the consequences of their actions that they can't see who's responsible for all of this.

Please enlighten us.

[jediuser598]

Seems hubris to believe that we're in touch with the all powerful ruler of the universe and that he takes an interest in our daily lives. Not only an interest, but a close interest. He's supposed to be our best friend, our father. The universe is incomprehensibly large, and yet, the ruler of all of that is our father? We are his children?

But it seems our body needs spiritualism as much as it needs people. We suck at being lonely, we're social creatures, perhaps we're spiritual creatures as well. (or rather creatures that tend to want to believe in spirituality) otherwise we're miserable.

There's this feeling that the universe is not enough, because in that universe without spirituality, well we're not all that special. We're just grains of sand on a near infinite beach. Is there not a need within the human mind to feel special? Or is it just the western mind?

Or is it that we need to at least feel part of something that is larger than ourselves, but also that we agree with and we're part of that force that is making the world a better place. All of those things you listed "Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism" are all individual. If we were instead to put that on a national scale, like this: "Acquisition of things money for my country, [don't know about lust on a national scale], do what is best for my country, acquisition of things formy country, my country wins accolades" then suddenly those are good things, even if they're at the expense of other countries. Then suddenly we have all that we need to be happy.

You know, perhaps if we killed off these ethical philosophers they'd stop making us feel bad about national pride/prosperity, our problems would be solved.

A national identity is a few steps more broad and inclusive than an individual egotistical identity certainly.

And a universe reduced to rational materialism is most certainly an abstract and empty place to live.

No reason to feel bad about national pride and prosperity any more than one should feel bad about individual pride and prosperity... but making either one of these the only goal that should be achieved at any cost is of course limited in it's moral scope... and ultimately self defeating.

Is it self defeating though?

Sure it's a limited moral scope, but that doesn't mean a limited moral scope isn't enough land to be happy with. If we abolish this belief that we have to do what is best for everyone, or what is best for the earth, and instead engage in "what is best for everyone is what is best for my country" then that limited moral scope provides enough moral land to be happy with.

That's what a lot of people are saying, what is best for my country is best for the world; in that they find all the happiness they need, despite the limited moral scope.

The way to defeat that is?

The key to happiness is what, a non-limited moral scope? I'd disagree sir, and perhaps the very belief that you need to worry about the happiness of others besides that of your nation is what leads to unhappiness, because one's nation is enough. It meets the prerequisites for happiness. And if your country you know, gets too into materialism and the population gets restless, there's always war.

[Speaker to Animals]

You need a meaningful identity, and a reason for living. This is what the tribe provides for you.

Neo-liberals see everything in terms of the individual, which is wrong. It's every bit as wrong as how the Marxists see everything in terms of the collective.

You need a tribe. The tribe gives you belonging and meaning. It is within the context of the tribe that your individuality is truly able to manifest itself. The greatest individuals in human history belonged to an ethnicity. They had nothing in common with the neo-liberal individualist.

It seems to me that, when you lose identity as happens in neo-liberalism and in any form of Marxism, that is when the truly horrendous crimes are committed. The hype-individualist is beholden to nobody and the cog in the collective machine is disposable.