Swiss may have best immigration policy.

[Speaker to Animals]

To expound on this further: the reason why we need to artificially tie up our self-worth in objective and measurable goals is that most men are compromised. That honor system amongst men is mostly dead in western civilization. If all we did was look towards other men to validate our competency and achievements, then we would only encounter mostly men who behave like women in critical areas. You have to kind of take ownership of this evolutionary system in order to objectively assess where you ought to stand in a healthy fraternity of men. When enough men do this, honor will return on its own and we can again have a self-organizing system. The only method I can think of to accomplish this is to encourage men to judge their self-worth by objective metrics and goals in core competency areas. It can really be almost anything; fitness, hunting, your career, etc. But if you make it something like "keeping my wife satisfied", then you need to go back to the drawing board.

When feminists talk about destroying the "patriarchy", they really seem to mean they want to destroy the natural system by which men relate to one another. And they have done so. It's dead.

[JohnDonne]

A lot of what you say makes sense

Building competence in ones field certainly requires and hones some character traits associated with masculinity. But a lot of very important and universal honor subsets such as loyalty and truth-telling, if they really are derived from competence in tight knit male group settings, are harder to develop without those group settings being replicated. That's the trouble. The examples are there in stories and history and film, but unless one watches them with a mind to emulate the best qualities of the best males. Or at least, it seems like younger men are more interested in the flashy results based images of masculinity, which emphasize what the masculine model has acquired, rather than their character, a typical example would be rappers shown to have a lot of money and a lot of women, instead of showing the rapper staying up late working on rhymes and being an honorable member of the gang.

[Speaker to Animals]

A lot of what you say makes sense

Building competence in ones field certainly requires and hones some character traits associated with masculinity. But a lot of very important and universal honor subsets such as loyalty and truth-telling, if they really are derived from competence in tight knit male group settings, are harder to develop without those group settings being replicated. That's the trouble. The examples are there in stories and history and film, but unless one watches them with a mind to emulate the best qualities of the best males. Or at least, it seems like younger men are more interested in the flashy results based images of masculinity, which emphasize what the masculine model has acquired, rather than their character, a typical example would be rappers shown to have a lot of money and a lot of women, instead of showing the rapper staying up late working on rhymes and being an honorable member of the gang.

You might find this book interesting:

https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Heart-Disco ... 0785268839

[JohnDonne]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[nmoore63]

Masculinity = Competency is a terrible definition.

People can do things in an incredibly incompentent manner and still be masculine.

For example, masculinity can requirement me to get my fucking ass beat to defend my wife's honor. It doesn't require competency to stand up for yourself or your ideals.

The idea the femininity doesn't require competency is also equally absurd. There are absolutely incompetent ways for a woman to raise children for example.

[Speaker to Animals]

You didn't even really respond to what I actually wrote, but that's no surprise.

[nmoore63]

Masculinity is mainly just competency.

Femininity is mainly just competency.

[Speaker to Animals]

Masculinity is mainly just competency.

Femininity is mainly just competency.

You still didn't respond to the argument. You read a sentence and then constructed a straw man to lash out at me. If anything, you illustrated my point (once again) about what has happened to men in our society.

Try to argue in good faith.

[nmoore63]

You can be incompetent and masculine.
Competency is not something distinctly masculine or feminine.

[Speaker to Animals]

You can be incompetent and masculine.
Competency is not something distinctly masculine or feminine.

Incompetent at what?

Masculinity derives from your competency at some kind of task. It's always relative to context. At the barest state, we are talking about competency at fighting, hunting, and survival. As civilization evolves, so do the contexts in which we frame masculinity, but it's always derived from competency (and especially mastery) of some important task.

Women don't have to be competent at a damned thing. That's why they hijacked affirmative action. Feminism is literally a system whereby women secure resources and status that they did not earn.

There sure as shit are women out there who are competent and earned their places, and I wholly approve of them, because I think women are immanently capable of becoming our equals today since most critical tasks don't really rely on physical prowess, pain tolerance, and fighting. The most important jobs that keep a technological civilization running, like engineering, are perfectly suitable for women to compete with us.