Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[Montegriffo]

Besides which...

Some voters think that when people talk of “no-deal” that means that the UK does not have Brexit and that we stay in the EU. London4Europe Committee member Michael Romberg looked at some opinion poll questions. They are clear that no-deal is a Leave option. So support for Remain is not being understated. The lesson is that we have to campaign better for Remain, not just for a People’s Vote.

A figure doing the rounds is that 84% of those asked thought that “no-deal” meant that we stay in the EU – though I have not found a published survey about what people thought that the phrase “no-deal” meant.

It would be a reasonable mistake. I wish to sell you my car for £4,000. You offer £2,000. I reject the offer. No deal. I don’t have your money. But I do still have the car. Nothing has changed.

https://www.london4europe.co.uk/does_no ... ean_remain

[BjornP]

So you admit that 68% of those polled don't want a no-deal Brexit.
What's your point?

Also, ''a poll conducted for the Daily Telegraph''.
Maybe you are not aware that Boris Johnson wrote a column for the ''Torygraph'' until he was made PM.
Talk about bovine excrement...

No, since that's not what the data says, that's not something I'd say. You're lying and manipulating now.

[Montegriffo]

There's always a poll to confirm what you want to hear. The only true poll would be another referendum.

The only true poll was the first referendum, you lost, get over it. Just because some other polls suggest your side might do better now, doesn't mean a do over is warranted.

Too close a result and too much deliberate misinformation.
A lot has changed in the 3 years since the referendum and that includes public opinion.
By your logic, we should abandon General Elections. After all, the public already had one so no need to have another.

[StCapps]

Montegriffo's argument is that the only real poll doesn't matter because lies were told during the campaign, so they need another referendum, because somehow this time, no lies will be told during the campaign.


Can't make that shit up, even as a parody it seems unbelievable, but it's what Monte actually believes.

[Speaker to Animals]

With all respect, Monte, a second referendum would represent the end of democracy in Britain. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle once summoned. Your opponents could demand a third referendum based on some new specious claim just as you do now.

All trust, even what little remains, in your democratic government would evaporate. The parliamentary government would lose all legitimacy.

Democracy requires some measure of finality in the outcome of a vote. You should only violate that finality in the most grave circumstances, which is to say probably never.

[StCapps]

There's always a poll to confirm what you want to hear. The only true poll would be another referendum.

The only true poll was the first referendum, you lost, get over it. Just because some other polls suggest your side might do better now, doesn't mean a do over is warranted.

Too close a result and too much deliberate misinformation.
A lot has changed in the 3 years since the referendum and that includes public opinion.
By your logic, we should abandon General Elections. After all, the public already had one so no need to have another.

No, by my logic, if you side loses a general election, you don't get a do over because it was close and polls indicate you might do better if the election were held early at the most opportune moment for your side. By your logic, you do get an early convenient do over in that situation, and that is not democracy, that's a temper tantrum from a sore loser.

[Montegriffo]

So you admit that 68% of those polled don't want a no-deal Brexit.
What's your point?

Also, ''a poll conducted for the Daily Telegraph''.
Maybe you are not aware that Boris Johnson wrote a column for the ''Torygraph'' until he was made PM.
Talk about bovine excrement...

No, since that's not what the data says, that's not something I'd say. You're lying and manipulating now.

Only 32% voted in favour of no-deal in your poll conducted for a pro-Brexit Newspaper.
Like most polls it is worthless.

[StCapps]

So you admit that 68% of those polled don't want a no-deal Brexit.
What's your point?

Also, ''a poll conducted for the Daily Telegraph''.
Maybe you are not aware that Boris Johnson wrote a column for the ''Torygraph'' until he was made PM.
Talk about bovine excrement...

No, since that's not what the data says, that's not something I'd say. You're lying and manipulating now.

Only 32% voted in favour of no-deal in your poll conducted for a pro-Brexit Newspaper.
Like most polls it is worthless.

You are assuming the people who said they would prefer Brexit with a deal would side with Remain over Brexit, which is a faulty assumption, and dishonest hackery.

[Montegriffo]

With all respect, Monte, a second referendum would represent the end of democracy in Britain. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle once summoned. Your opponents could demand a third referendum based on some new specious claim just as you do now.

All trust, even what little remains, in your democratic government would evaporate. The parliamentary government would lose all legitimacy.

Democracy requires some measure of finality in the outcome of a vote. You should only violate that finality in the most grave circumstances, which is to say probably never.

First of all, thanks. I think that is the first time you have ever given me the respect of spelling my name in the way I would like it spelt.

Secondly, trying to force through a no-deal Brexit by suspending Parliament and the democratic process is doing far more damage to the public's opinion of Democracy than another referendum.

Next time make it a legally binding rather than an advisory referendum with a clear choice of options.
For many voters in the under-funded North of England, their choice of leave was a giant ''fuck you'' to Cameron's Tory government and had nothing what so ever to do with the consequences of leaving the EU.
The result was so close that seeking confirmation is far from undemocratic.

[Montegriffo]

No, since that's not what the data says, that's not something I'd say. You're lying and manipulating now.

Only 32% voted in favour of no-deal in your poll conducted for a pro-Brexit Newspaper.
Like most polls it is worthless.

You are assuming the people who said they would prefer Brexit with a deal would side with Remain over Brexit, which is a faulty assumption, and dishonest hackery.

However you look at it there is no majority for a no-deal Brexit.
Most people would rather leave with May's deal (leaving the political union but remaining in the single market) or remaining in the EU.
Both of these options are far better than crashing out and causing real damage to the British economy (which even the government's studies have accepted would be the result of no-deal).
For you, it is just some nationalist/globalist debate to try and score points on in an obscure internet forum. For me, it has real-world consequences for the country I was born and bred in and have lived in for all but 3 years of my life.
Very few of you have any idea of what membership of the single market has done for the economy of the UK.
Before we were admitted in the 1970s Britain had been described as ''the sick man of Europe''.
De Gaul's hatred of Britain had blocked our entry in the 60s and by '74 we were begging to be let in. We now have one of the strongest economies in Europe and have no restrictions on trade or travel throughout the single market. We also have a seat on the decision making bodies of the EU and a veto to reject any rules or policies we oppose. We have kept our currency and have not been forced to join the crazy Schengen zone.
In 2015 I was able to take my kitchen to a member state (the Republic of Ireland) and trade without restriction other than complying with local environmental health regulations, which are identical to those at home. I didn't even have to pay any income tax in that country.
Leaving the single market with no-deal would deprive me and my fellow countrymen in order to satisfy the wishes of a few uninformed Brexiteers pining for a utopian past which never actually existed.