Coronavirus thread

[Montegriffo]

Sure looks that way when any attempt to discuss reopening the economy is met with vitriol and accusations of wanting everyone to die.
That's not how reasonable, well-intentioned, honest people respond to discussions.
So . . . we must look for the most likely motives that drive such responses, Occam's Razor style.

...and when any discussion about the conditions needed before the economy can be reopened safely is ignored or met with accusations of wanting to deliberately damage the economy you have to look at the motivation of those who would put money over lives.

Have the godamn discussion then. Every time opening up the economy comes up, the response is invariably: not yet.

When asked when, the response is: don't know.

When asked what it would take, the response is: we need tests.

End of discussion. No plan in sight.

I have tried. Twice in the last 3 days alone I've talked about the conditions necessary to relax the shutdown and both times it resulted in zero discussion from anyone in a rush to open up the economy

https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315673

Certain conditions need to be met first. The rate of infection needs to be low enough, the health service needs to be in a position where it is not in danger of being overwhelmed, PPE needs to be widely available and the reason for it's use needs to be understood. Most of all there needs to be enough capacity to test, track and contain any new outbreaks of the disease.
We are not there yet.

https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315963

No, Boris is listening to his advisors and not prepared to talk about dates until the 5 conditions for a safe end to the shutdown have been met.

1: The NHS has the capacity to provide critical care right across the UK.
2: A sustained and consistent fall in daily deaths from coronavirus.
3: The rate of infection has decreased to manageable levels across the board.
4: Operational challenges including testing and PPE are in hand, with supply able to meet future demand.
5: Confidence that any adjustments to the current measures will not risk a second peak of infections (that overwhelms the NHS)

The WHO recommends 6 conditions.

1. Disease transmission is under control

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

[DBTrek]

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"
6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate "and empower" global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

...and when any discussion about the conditions needed before the economy can be reopened safely is ignored or met with accusations of wanting to deliberately damage the economy you have to look at the motivation of those who would put money over lives.

Have the godamn discussion then. Every time opening up the economy comes up, the response is invariably: not yet.

When asked when, the response is: don't know.

When asked what it would take, the response is: we need tests.

End of discussion. No plan in sight.

I have tried. Twice in the last 3 days alone I've talked about the conditions necessary to relax the shutdown and both times it resulted in zero discussion from anyone in a rush to open up the economy

https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315673
https://www.martinhash.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p315963

No, Boris is listening to his advisors and not prepared to talk about dates until the 5 conditions for a safe end to the shutdown have been met.

1: The NHS has the capacity to provide critical care right across the UK.
2: A sustained and consistent fall in daily deaths from coronavirus.
3: The rate of infection has decreased to manageable levels across the board.
4: Operational challenges including testing and PPE are in hand, with supply able to meet future demand.
5: Confidence that any adjustments to the current measures will not risk a second peak of infections (that overwhelms the NHS)

The WHO recommends 6 conditions.

1. Disease transmission is under control

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

I want to take these recommendations as seriously as I can, because I believe you are arguing in good faith.

1. Disease transmission is under control.

How? There isn't going to be a vaccine for some time, if ever, for the same reason that there isn't a vaccine for SARS and a vaccine of only limited efficacy for MERS.

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

How? With the transmission rate and huge amount of asymptomatic carriers, this is more or less impossible, and there is no plan to actually achieve this herculean task.

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

We already have all the tools we need for this.

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

We already know how to achieve this, and have all the tools we need.

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

We already know how to achieve this and have all the tools we need.

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

I don't know exactly what this means, but I am fairly certain it is not something that can be achieved through shelter-in-place, or social distancing, or more tests, or more PPE.

Here is the ugly truth. It doesn't matter how long we shelter in place, or how many tests we have. We are going to be in the exact same position as we are right now until we have herd immunity or a vaccine. As stated earlier, there is not a vaccine on the horizon, and there may not be one.

[Xenophon]

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"
6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate "and empower" global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

Detect, test, isolate, and treat every case and trace every contact? I dunno, sounds authoritarian to me, dawg.

But I guess if your ideology is in lockstep with that of the global elites, then who cares if they attempt sweeping measures to track every thing you do and every where you go? It won't effect you or your circle, just those with icky, traditional outlooks on life. And screw those people, they're evil.

[PartyOf5]

Last season's flu deaths were around 61k from almost 50 million infections in the US.
The Coronavirus has, so far, killed nearly 77k from 1.3 million confirmed infections.
You would have to multiply the confirmed cases of COVID19 by nearly 40 to make the flu as deadly as the Coronavirus.

44K from 1.3 Million, don't over-inflate numbers...

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You didn't include any of the Pneumonia + COVID deaths.

If you really cared about stats you would have taken the time to look and see that 70,000 Pneumonia deaths during the first 4 months of 2020 is 20,000 more than we usually see in a full year. That is very likely related to COVID.

You are really, really bad at statistics bro.

[BjornP]

Government having a plan for how to save the economy = planned economy = Communism.

Plans are a slippery slope. Just pick a direction, put on a blindfold, start walking and trust in the Lord.

[DBTrek]

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"
6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate "and empower" global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

Detect, test, isolate, and treat every case and trace every contact? I dunno, sounds authoritarian to me, dawg.

But I guess if your ideology is in lockstep with that of the global elites, then who cares if they attempt sweeping measures to track every thing you do and every where you go? It won't effect you or your circle, just those with icky, traditional outlooks on life. And screw those people, they're evil.

No worries bro. As soon as the most remote Amazonian tribe has been "fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal" we can reopen. And then maybe we can look at getting them indoor plumbing, pants, and electricity, or something.

[Montegriffo]

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"
6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

Educated in the need to take precautions such as wearing masks and keeping a safe distance apart, willing to take those precautions and able to comply ie enough masks available.
When your response to those recommendations is ''muh freedoms'' there's still a long way to go.

Several countries such as South Korea, Germany, Singapore are able to comply with the recommendations and are slowly opening up but if you rush into it under the guise of freedoms, rights and the goddamn constitution
there will be no public confidence and half the population will continue to stay at home anyway.

[PartyOf5]

Mine is from the CDC from confirmed cases, not proposed without verification.

In other words, he never bothered to check the link I provided him on how they get their numbers.

Oh, and from the CDC about wearing masks since their word is gospel to you:

In light of new data about how COVID-19 spreads, along with evidence of widespread COVID-19 illness in communities across the country, CDC recommends that people wear a cloth face covering to cover their nose and mouth in the community setting. This is to protect people around you if you are infected but do not have symptoms.

Your "simple as that" solution turns out to be a simpleton solution, which is to be expected coming from you.

[DBTrek]

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"
6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

Oh, is that all?
Just be able to detect and treat everything, and buzzword, buzzword, acclimate global populace to ambiguous "new normal".
So ... as HM said earlier, no plan.

Educated in the need to take precautions such as wearing masks and keeping a safe distance apart, willing to take those precautions and able to comply ie enough masks available.
When your response to those recommendations is ''muh freedoms'' there's still a long way to go.

Several countries such as South Korea, Germany, Singapore are able to comply with the recommendations and are slowly opening up but if you rush into it under the guise of freedoms, rights and the goddamn constitution
there will be no public confidence and half the population will continue to stay at home anyway.

Don't hedge, Monte. What is the "new normal" exactly? How is full education AND engagement by world communities determined to meet this "new normal"? When is a community fully empowered to live under a "new normal".
I need details, man. Timelines. Costs. Metrics. What is actually being proposed?

Because I edit a lot of buzzword soup for a living, and that shit right there is buzzword soup.
It means nothing.