The Green Leap Forward

[C-Mag]

Anyway, the graph could be more useful as an insight into how much each country pollutes. After all, what's the rate of recycling all that e-waste (or any other discarded products) in China compared to Norway or even the US?

I don't know if it's that complex Bjorn. People instinctively know when their in a filthy polluted environment 90% of the time. Sure there's the unknowns like Flint Michigan lead levels in the water, but more often we know pollution when we see it and don't need graphs, charts or power points to tell us. One pic from China, human shit and needles in San Fransisco or trash floating in the ocean and we know.

Where people fool themselves is normalcy bias. People go to the country and say, wow the air is clean here, but don't wonder, does that mean my daily urban environment is polluted.

[BjornP]

Anyway, the graph could be more useful as an insight into how much each country pollutes. After all, what's the rate of recycling all that e-waste (or any other discarded products) in China compared to Norway or even the US?

I don't know if it's that complex Bjorn. People instinctively know when their in a filthy polluted environment 90% of the time. Sure there's the unknowns like Flint Michigan lead levels in the water, but more often we know pollution when we see it and don't need graphs, charts or power points to tell us. One pic from China, human shit and needles in San Fransisco or trash floating in the ocean and we know.

Where people fool themselves is normalcy bias. People go to the country and say, wow the air is clean here, but don't wonder, does that mean my daily urban environment is polluted.

That graph you showed isn't lying. As for not needing any datasets, or graphs, or charts, or datasets, etc. when it comes to dealing with pollution... I disagree. "We know pollution when we see it". Yeah, but you know the saying: "Out of sight, out of mind"? The idea that only that which you can see, is damaging to you... you already indicate that it happens. Gases and toxic pollutants, or nuclear raditation... sure, you'll eventually see the effect... depending on lethality, after a few days... or after a generation if it turns out it "just" makes all the contaminated men and women produce sick offspring.

[C-Mag]

I addressed the unseen, tasteless, odorless toxin.

My point is, we should trust our senses too. Not just rely on data sets. When you rely on data sets and metrics alone you get decisions like Kyoto and Paris. Where certain activities are unacceptable pollution in one area and not another.

I really, really doubt that if I got to Norway I'm going to see fjords choked with E-waste and fish floating to the surface killed by heavy metals from dead computers. However, I've seen pics of the E-waste mining operations in Asia, and just because china has 4 Billion peasants with no tech doesn't mean they aren't worse offenders than the Norvegians.

[The Conservative]

Hey, quit destroying my planet

Yeah, China can't be that low... I'm sorry but they are king of every other kind of pollution practically.

It's per capita. Do you even multiply?

Yeah, I do, and I'm sorry to say that is an easy way to say that China which has over a billion people so if we do the math...

China produces: 15,591,091,181 lbs of electronic trash.
US produces: 13,900,145,630 lbs of electronic trash.
Norway produces: 149,853,000 of electronic trash.

And as pointed out before not all of China has tech, if anything it's more towards the East coast than anything.

So let's call a spade a spade. Shall we?

[Fife]

The hardcore East Germans in 1970 didn't enjoy virtue signaling about commitment to the cause nearly this much.

[C-Mag]

The hardcore East Germans in 1970 didn't enjoy virtue signaling about commitment to the cause nearly this much.

Memories...….. kinda miss East Germany. Luckily they are turning the Olympics into a modern version of the East German Swim team.


Only this time they are allowing men to compete against women, if they promise they really feel like women on the inside.

[BjornP]

However, I've seen pics of the E-waste mining operations in Asia, and just because china has 4 Billion peasants with no tech doesn't mean they aren't worse offenders than the Norvegians.

China has lots of tech, living standards have risen quite alot over the last couple decades...and with it came lots of pollution and they are of course worse offenders in that regard. Dunno what it is supposed to be about that graph that's supposed to be a challenge what you and I both know to be true about China's greater pollution?

Again, as Hastur pointed out... the graph showed generation of a certain subset of waste, per capita. Lots more Chinese capitas (heads), than there are Norwegian capitas. Add the complete disregard Chinese people have for nature (everyone will just throw their garbage whereever they like and not give a shit about it), and the complete fraud projects about trying to pass Chinese cities off as "green" to foreign investors and news sources. They don't give a crap about green tech or the long term...anything, unless it can earn them some cold hard cash in the short term.

[The Conservative]

However, I've seen pics of the E-waste mining operations in Asia, and just because china has 4 Billion peasants with no tech doesn't mean they aren't worse offenders than the Norvegians.

China has lots of tech, living standards have risen quite alot over the last couple decades...and with it came lots of pollution and they are of course worse offenders in that regard. Dunno what it is supposed to be about that graph that's supposed to be a challenge what you and I both know to be true about China's greater pollution?

Again, as Hastur pointed out... the graph showed generation of a certain subset of waste, per capita. Lots more Chinese capitas (heads), than there are Norwegian capitas. Add the complete disregard Chinese people have for nature (everyone will just throw their garbage whereever they like and not give a shit about it), and the complete fraud projects about trying to pass Chinese cities off as "green" to foreign investors and news sources. They don't give a crap about green tech or the long term...anything, unless it can earn them some cold hard cash in the short term.

Not per capita, per person.

[Fife]

[C-Mag]

@ Bjorn
I think we're pretty well in agreement.

Add the complete disregard Chinese people have for nature (everyone will just throw their garbage whereever they like and not give a shit about it)

This is a key point.

The grave is talking about waste generated, not how it is disposed of or recycled. Pollutants are not polluting until they are dispersed. This is where Western nations are very responsible, and the remainder of the world does poorly to criminal in the case of places like China.

The real blackmark in my mind for the west is that we ship stuff like E-waste off to asia to be recycled. Little kids spend their days breaking up mother boards and melting down computers completely uncontrolled.