Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[Speaker to Animals]

I mean.. just looking at my typical meal plan.. It's already mostly vegetables. But I still need like 150-200 grams of protein in there, and I definitely don't need additional carbs on top of those I get from regular vegetables. Some of that high-carb stuff is great for when you are bulking. Oatmeal for instance is one of my favorites. But I can't eat that every day without getting fat. I have to cycle high carbs throughout the week to avoid getting fat.

A typical chicken breast has about 1.4 grams of fat, 25 grams of protein, and 0 grams of carbs. Only 0.4 grams of that 1.4 grams of fat is saturated fat. That's perfect. That's what puts muscle on me and helped me to burn off most of the fat I accumulated when I was bulking for a long time (really bad idea, don't ever do that).

I shit you not, if you could show me a vegan food source that has that nutritional profile, I would seriously look into switching for a while.

But there is also the issue of protein synthesis. Obviously, this food source needs to be supplemented with all the amino acids it is missing to match what you get from meat, but I can get the amino acids.

I just don't see it happening. The only way you can sort of make it work is through protein powders or something, and that's not real food. It's a terrible way to maintain your muscle and strength.

Nuts are a very good source of protein unless you are avoiding fats.

I eat raw nuts too. That kind of fat is not bad. I struggle with my bad cholesterol, so I try to minimize saturated fats. There's really no other reason to limit saturated fats than that other than just trying to reduce calories.

Today, for instance:

~30 ounces boneless skinless chicken breast
10 slices of low-fat low-sodium turkey bacon to wrap around the chicken
~4-5 cups of fresh green beans
3 large carrots
One serving of Greek yogurt
1 Fitcrunch protein bar (my treat/desert)
About 3 servings of olive oil as my fat source

I usually have more variety in vegetables, but I wanted to eat most of these beans before long.


If there existed a vegan protein source to match that chicken (the turkey bacon is just for flavor and total was only about 250 calories), then you can see I could easily switch over.

I think a lot of men like me are in the same boat.


I am all for ending factory farms, though. But you also have economic problems that lead to this now. A lot of people cannot afford to eat local food any longer.

[JohnDonne]

@JD
All good points I'm sure but it strikes me as the same hypocrisy shown by ''pro-lifers'' who murder abortion doctors.
I think the best possible way to spread the vegan lifestyle would be to persuade people of the benefits rather than threaten dairy farmers who follow all the best practises of their trade.
Very few male calves are killed at birth these days, if they don't raise them themselves beef farmers buy them and raise them to maturity.

I think a better use of your time would be to go after farmers with very poor standards of animal welfare. Broiler chickens and intensively farmed cattle who spend their whole lives in sheds without ever seeing the light of day. In which case I would happily join you on the picket line comrade.

Well, I agree it's bad optics to go after the small farmer, but I wanted to explain the vegan rationale for those that appear mystified by the whole thing.

In my opinion the most important activism one can take part in is to go undercover and expose factory farming practices. That and engaging in rational debate, converting others, grabbing those untapped niches, not every personality is the same, different approaches of the same philosophy appeal to different people, like vegan bodybuilding is becoming bigger lately. If a vegan is charismatic enough to gain a youtube following, they can help push it ever more into the mainstream.

[JohnDonne]

@Strangelove

It's very possible to be a bodybuilder or an industrial athlete on the vegan diet.

They are also working on in vitro meat, a more environmentally sustainable, cruelty free meat grown in a lab. It exists but it's not in store shelves yet. Might have to wait a few years.

[Montegriffo]

@JD
All good points I'm sure but it strikes me as the same hypocrisy shown by ''pro-lifers'' who murder abortion doctors.
I think the best possible way to spread the vegan lifestyle would be to persuade people of the benefits rather than threaten dairy farmers who follow all the best practises of their trade.
Very few male calves are killed at birth these days, if they don't raise them themselves beef farmers buy them and raise them to maturity.

I think a better use of your time would be to go after farmers with very poor standards of animal welfare. Broiler chickens and intensively farmed cattle who spend their whole lives in sheds without ever seeing the light of day. In which case I would happily join you on the picket line comrade.

Well, I agree it's bad optics to go after the small farmer, but I wanted to explain the vegan rationale for those that appear mystified by the whole thing.

In my opinion the most important activism one can take part in is to go undercover and expose factory farming practices. That and engaging in rational debate, converting others, grabbing those untapped niches, not every personality is the same, different approaches of the same philosophy appeal to different people, like vegan bodybuilding is becoming bigger lately. If a vegan is charismatic enough to gain a youtube following, they can help push it ever more into the mainstream.

Not trying to catch you in some sort of hypocrisy trap here, genuinely interested in your opinion of honey. Do you consider it to be exploitation of bees?
Also if you kept your own chickens and ensured that they had a very happy life why is it wrong to consume their eggs? An unfertilized egg does not contain life it is merely a natural part of their life cycle.

[JohnDonne]

@JD
All good points I'm sure but it strikes me as the same hypocrisy shown by ''pro-lifers'' who murder abortion doctors.
I think the best possible way to spread the vegan lifestyle would be to persuade people of the benefits rather than threaten dairy farmers who follow all the best practises of their trade.
Very few male calves are killed at birth these days, if they don't raise them themselves beef farmers buy them and raise them to maturity.

I think a better use of your time would be to go after farmers with very poor standards of animal welfare. Broiler chickens and intensively farmed cattle who spend their whole lives in sheds without ever seeing the light of day. In which case I would happily join you on the picket line comrade.

Well, I agree it's bad optics to go after the small farmer, but I wanted to explain the vegan rationale for those that appear mystified by the whole thing.

In my opinion the most important activism one can take part in is to go undercover and expose factory farming practices. That and engaging in rational debate, converting others, grabbing those untapped niches, not every personality is the same, different approaches of the same philosophy appeal to different people, like vegan bodybuilding is becoming bigger lately. If a vegan is charismatic enough to gain a youtube following, they can help push it ever more into the mainstream.

Not trying to catch you in some sort of hypocrisy trap here, genuinely interested in your opinion of honey. Do you consider it to be exploitation of bees?
Also if you kept your own chickens and ensured that they had a very happy life why is it wrong to consume their eggs? An unfertilized egg does not contain life it is merely a natural part of their life cycle.

I prefer to leave the bees alone, I don’t need their honey, there may be exploitation and accidental killing of bees in the harvesting process, I don’t want that on my conscience.

Your premise where I raise chickens without cruelty and do not kill or exploit them presupposes the conclusion that it wouldn’t be wrong. So I suppose it wouldn’t given the parameters of the argument. yet having never raised chickens myself and having very high standards for how animals should be treated I wonder at the practicality of it, then there’s the question of protecting them from predators, and so on, which may carry ethical complications. I’m sure it can be done, but I find it easier to just avoid animal products.

[Speaker to Animals]

Well, you're not going to have your fruits and vegetables without bees either. Honey is also a by-product of agriculture.

[JohnDonne]

I didn’t say bees shouldn’t exist or be used in agriculture if it makes sense to, just that I don’t like that their honey is harvested. They made it, let them have it.

Which reminds me of an idea I thought of. Bee populations are dwindling? Use a swarm of high tech bug drones.

[Okeefenokee]

I didn’t say bees shouldn’t exist or be used in agriculture if it makes sense to, just that I don’t like that their honey is harvested. They made it, let them have it.

Which reminds me of an idea I thought of. Bee populations are dwindling? Use a swarm of high tech bug drones.

You didn't make that oxygen you're breathing. Give it back.

[TheReal_ND]

I didn’t say bees shouldn’t exist or be used in agriculture if it makes sense to, just that I don’t like that their honey is harvested. They made it, let them have it.

Which reminds me of an idea I thought of. Bee populations are dwindling? Use a swarm of high tech bug drones.

What if you built them several large houses and protected them on your property to keep them safe while you went to great pains to extract the honey in a responsible manner? That is a quid pro quo relationship that you see mirrored in nature.

[Okeefenokee]

A certain brand of “friendly ant” slurps sugar syrup excreted from the body of a Lycaenid caterpillar. When predatory ants (Fireants? Hard to say.) arrive to snatch and eat the caterpillar, the friendly ants fight them off, helping preserve the future Blue butterfly to live another day.