DACA

[doc_loliday]

[I can't support kicking out a 15 year old who can't even remember living anywhere but here.

I will say this. You'll get a lot more support by simply admitting the entire argument is pathos. Redefining words, or screaming racist, or trying to defend an otherwise absurd with the utmost illogical arguments will only ever work on a certain segment of society.

[Viktorthepirate]

[I can't support kicking out a 15 year old who can't even remember living anywhere but here.

I will say this. You'll get a lot more support by simply admitting the entire argument is pathos. Redefining words, or screaming racist, or trying to defend an otherwise absurd with the utmost illogical arguments will only ever work on a certain segment of society.

See my post after that one

[doc_loliday]

[I can't support kicking out a 15 year old who can't even remember living anywhere but here.

I will say this. You'll get a lot more support by simply admitting the entire argument is pathos. Redefining words, or screaming racist, or trying to defend an otherwise absurd with the utmost illogical arguments will only ever work on a certain segment of society.

See my post after that one

That's the one I was responding to, I just didn't want to grab the whole wall of text. I didn't mean to grab the first one, I just took the first sentence off the top.

[Viktorthepirate]

I will say this. You'll get a lot more support by simply admitting the entire argument is pathos. Redefining words, or screaming racist, or trying to defend an otherwise absurd with the utmost illogical arguments will only ever work on a certain segment of society.

See my post after that one

That's the one I was responding to, I just didn't want to grab the whole wall of text. I didn't mean to grab the first one, I just took the first sentence off the top.

You make a good point. I think everyone wants to scream racist and it just hardens the hearts of those opposed. People who would otherwise be open to a dialogue about it become very opposed.

There is nothing wrong with an appeal to the emotions on certain subjects. We are supposed to be a nation of values after all. Just own up to that shit.

[Viktorthepirate]

I will say this. You'll get a lot more support by simply admitting the entire argument is pathos. Redefining words, or screaming racist, or trying to defend an otherwise absurd with the utmost illogical arguments will only ever work on a certain segment of society.

See my post after that one

That's the one I was responding to, I just didn't want to grab the whole wall of text. I didn't mean to grab the first one, I just took the first sentence off the top.

Also that "we are a nation of immigrants" argument is so fucking stupid. We let everyone in when we needed the people. That isn't the case anymore.

However I believe that allowing dreamers earn their citizenship through some form of a service would be a good compromise and match up with the egalitarian principles we say we believe in.

They are here already, we need to deal with them. It can satisfy the feels while not allowing people to get away with coming here against our laws and getting a free pass.

And of course, as I say with any immigration law, it goes hand in hand with stronger border enforcement. If we take that seriously we won't have these issues in the future.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

The only reason the candy bar analogy fails is because it's a single candy bar. It's more like the stolen candy bars keep coming and they keep getting eaten and nobody has found out yet. Just because it sucks so hard to have the candy bars cut off is no reason to not cut them off. Stolen property is really a great analogy, the only reason you don't like it is because it so accurately describes what's happening. Go to a hospital in much of California. Look around for 5 minutes in Los Angeles. Infrastructure and education is terribly expensive. Tell me resources aren't being used. I don't live in an open borders country, I live in one that has laws, and foreigners don't get to dictate our laws because it totally sucks so hard otherwise. Direct your anger towards those that fucked up, the parents.

I'm not angry, I just prefer not to argue with analogies. They are presented as clarifying, but actually obscure the point. Hence, specious.

There are loads of infrastructure problems in American, none of which will be solved with .002% fewer people. If we want to have a discussion about budgets, fine, but that is a different discussion.

The problem here is that people take support of DACA, or a DACA-like program, as implicit support of open-borders. This is absurd, since open borders would render DACA completely useless.

I would submit that, for all the accusations of feels-based reasoning against the left, peoples' problem with DACA is entirely based on their feelings about immigration in general, and has little to do with the actual contents of DACA, and fails to acknowledge the legal conflict it attempts to solve.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Criminal by proxy.

[doc_loliday]

There are loads of infrastructure problems in American, none of which will be solved with .002% fewer people.

Youre deliberately obscuring things. LA and California bear an enormous burden. As of 2013 perhaps 1/10 in LA is illegal, a quarter of the illegal population is in CA, ans 7% of the state is illegal. Stop acting like its this tiny little issue and there is 1 immigrant in every town in the US.

https://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/20 ... study-says

[doc_loliday]

The problem here is that people take support of DACA, or a DACA-like program, as implicit support of open-borders. This is absurd, since open borders would render DACA completely useless.

I would submit that, for all the accusations of feels-based reasoning against the left, peoples' problem with DACA is entirely based on their feelings about immigration in general, and has little to do with the actual contents of DACA, and fails to acknowledge the legal conflict it attempts to solve.

If you decide that people that bring their kids here are citizens it is quite nearly open borders.

And calling the burden that you personally don't have to bear as feels is the thing that turns people off the most. You don't have your crumbling freeways clogged, you don't have barrios to avoid, you don't have your hospitals overflowing with the uninsured, your schools aren't filled with kids that are here illegally, and there is no shortage of low skilled jobs for Americans where you live. These are costs I have to pay, and issues that I have to deal with every day. So take your feels bullshit and shove it. People hear this, and it dissolves any good will they have and it encourages them to support the deportation of every last one of them.

[Ph64]

There are loads of infrastructure problems in American, none of which will be solved with .002% fewer people. If we want to have a discussion about budgets, fine, but that is a different discussion.

They also won't be solved with the extra .002% more people, making that entire point irrelevant.

Might as well say our educational issues won't be fixed with 10% fewer basketballs - which is true, but they also wouldn't be fixed with 10% more basketballs, or any percentage more or less because basketballs are entirely irrelevant to learning English, math, etc.

How exactly are you suggesting illegals are related to our infrastructure?