Current US Military

[Smitty-48]

Crimea is the perfect example of how to employ tactical nuclear weapons in theater

tactical nuclear weapons are not for MAD, they are for fighting

you employ them in combination with your conventional weapons

so Russia takes Crimea, but doesn't have the mass to hold it conventionally

to prevent it from being taken back, they moved tactical nuclear weapons into Crimea

the Ukrainians are actually strong enough to take Crimea back now with conventional weapons

but Ukraine is not protected by American nuclear weapons, so actually Russia could tac nuke them

so that prevents them from even trying to take Crimea back, can't be done by conventional force of arms

[Smitty-48]

it's hard to overstate how hawkish Obama was

the Obama Doctrine puts all options on the table, Flexible Response McNamara called it

America will fight conventionally where possible, even if attacked with nuclear weapons,

nuclear retaliation is not a given, there is no Massive Retaliation at all under the Obama Doctrine

America will fight with both conventional and nuclear weapons at the same time

America will fight with nuclear weapons even if not attacked with nuclear weapons

America will even respond with nuclear weapons against a cyberattack

whatever the POTUS decides to do, every option is on the table

except MAD, MAD is the only missing from the doctrine

the Obama Doctrine invokes counterforce as first & last option,

the Obama Doctrine says America will respond with counterforce, even if Russia launches ICBM's over the pole

it's not even American doctrine to target enemy population centers anymore

if America retaliated against Moscow, the plan now is precision tactical nuclear strikes against military targets

[Smitty-48]

I'll give you an example of how the MICC / Pentagon slips this stuff in under the radar

Prompt Global Strike

the Bush Administration said they would use ballistic missiles to take out terrorists

you find Bin Laden, limited window to strike, you take him out with a ballistic missile in fifteen minutes

Post 9-11 GWOT, they could justify anything under the rubric of Counterterrorism

but if you think about it, it makes no sense

you're going to launch a Trident SLBM to take out one guy ?

It has 12 warheads on it, do you just waste eleven of them ?

it's a bait & switch, they wanted precision guided tactical nuclear warheads on the SLBMs for counterforce

now they are here, Trump followed the plan, W76-2 tactical warheads are on the Tridents

that is the real Prompt Global Strike, theater thermonuclear counterforce by SLBM

bear in mind the CEP of these warheads, Trident MIRV's are accurate down to 300 feet

the W76-2 warhead is dial-a-yield down to 2 kilotons

what do you attack with very small yet very accurate nuclear warheads ?

not population centers, these nukes are so small it wouldn't do enough damage

these warheads are designed to strike the other sides nuclear weapons before they can launch them

theater thermonuclear counterforce, preemptive first strike,

"Prompt" means preempt, "Global" means in theaters, "Strike" was never stated to be conventional only

prepared to fight and win a theater war, with just one submarine, inside of five minutes

that ain't MAD, that is the complete opposite of MAD

[Martin Hash]

Very nice. I’m absorbing this shit.

[Smitty-48]

Very nice. I’m absorbing this shit.

so once you realize that America has shifted to counterforce instead of MAD

not that they are going to do it, that they already did it a long time ago

then the logic of nuclear weapons says that the only way to make it safe, is to go all the way

we have walked out into the Rubicon, then stopped halfway

can't stop now, half measures is the worst of both worlds

the only way to do this safely, is the way Reagan did it,

go all the way, until the Russians go broke trying to keep up

if you can't beat it, you have to join it, otherwise you are no man's land

Eagle with Thunderbolts in talons grasped, Peace Through Strength, is the only safe path now

[Smitty-48]

this is why I sided with Dutch back in the 80's

there were no good options, it was a choice of least worst options based on the situation as it was

the lefties wanted disarmament, delusionally unrealistic, moving on

the liberals wanted half measures, prepare for World War Three, but from a position of weakness

Reagan said break them, this is not a safe situation, the only way to get to safe, is resolution, win the Cold War

I thought, it's gonna be a hairy ride, but at least it's a plan that could actually work

[SuburbanFarmer]

Makes ya wonder why Europe is still playing along with NATO.

NATO is an American deterrence umbrella

they are playing along with being protected by American nuclear weapons

the NATO countries are not protected by American MAD

so America moving to a theater counterforce model is protecting Europeans at America's expense

that's why they choose F-35 over European options

it's an American tactical nuclear weapon first and foremost,

able to deliver two NATO B61-12 preemptively by stealth

those bombs being stored in the Netherlands, Italy & Turkey to be used by NATO allied countries

those are tactical nuclear bombs, they are for use in a war against Russia in Europe

Well, under MAD, the nukes would have largely bypassed Europe, to strike the CONUS and USSR. Now, Europe becomes the battlefield between the great powers. Housing nukes in the neighborhood of Russia doesn't confer any sort of safety in this rubric.

Europe seems to prefer the role of meat-shield, to actually breaking away from the conflict.

If they were to leave NATO, does modern Russia simply walk over and take control? Of course not. America is still there to push them back, but at least the minor powers aren't directly in the line of fire. It could even lessen the global tensions, if EU told both sides to fuck off and go home. A gigantic buffer state to hold the peace, if you will.

[Smitty-48]

Well, under MAD, the nukes would have largely bypassed Europe, to strike the CONUS and USSR.

I was there, that was not the case

it was the opposite of that

the Soviets were only going to use tactical nuclear weapons in Europe against non nuclear armed countries

they would not use nuclear weapons against America, Britain, nor France

the Soviets deployed SSBN's under the polar ice cap where they could not be taken out

those could have taken the CONUS out in one fell swoop

America wasn't really going to fight that war over the pole, for countries in Europe

so the Soviets could use nuclear weapons in Europe, without being destroyed, so no MAD in effect then

then they commnced the deployment of the new missiles, the SS-20 INF

didn't have the range to hit the CONUS, could only reach targets in Western Europe

then America deployed Pershing 2 & Nuclear Tomahawk to Europe to fight the counterforce war there

[Smitty-48]

in the 1980's, the actual big bombs that America was going to use against Soviet cities, was the Titan II ICBM

still left over from the 1960's, a big ICBM with a 9 megaton "City Killer" warhead on it

those were the MAD weapons, the countervalue deterrent weapons

but then one almost blew up in Arkansas, Bill Clinton was Governor

they were so old that they were actually a danger to blow themselves up on American soil

so those missiles were retired and phased out

Minuteman III was not the countervalue weapon at the time, Minuteman III was actually for counterforce

back then the submarine launched missiles were not accurate enough to take out Soviet ICBM's

the Minuteman III was the most accurate ICBM, so it was a counterforce weapon by default

it was only after they retired the Titan II that Minuteman III assumed the primary countervalue role as well

[Smitty-48]

again, MAD was not even the doctrine nor policy in the 1980's

MAD was all the way back to Eisenhower, it was called Massive Retaliation

in the 1980's, the Reagan Administration switched from MAD to counterforce

they said the Soviets had built up their forces to the point where a first strike was plausible

it was true, the Soviets could by then hit so fast and so massively, they had a reasonable chance of pulling it off

so America could not rely on MAD anymore, America had to prepare to fight & win a nuclear war

how was America going to do that ?

America was going to follow the Strategic Defense Initiative which the media dubbed "Star Wars"

really it was just a fancy way of saying America was going to pursue Ballistic Missile Defense

America was also going to deploy INF's to Europe to fight the Soviets there in theater

Bush made BMD official when they pulled out of ABM 72'

Obama made INF's come back by deploying into Poland & Romania

Trump deployed the counterforce weapons at sea to back that up

so we are back to 1983 again, except new & improved with 21st century tech