Common Sense 322 - Betting on Long Shots

[DrYouth]

Seems to me that Smitty is not redefining the work empire so much as stating that a relevant global empire in the time of modernity was intercontinental.

But the Mongols weren't operating during the time of intercontinental empires.

The Romans were not contenders during the Mongol age... they had fizzled out... and there were not intercontinental empires for the Mongols to compete with.

[DBTrek]

off your good name.
/shrug

I'm a bad guy because I define empire by the Roman : Imperium ?

that seems a little harsh

but whatever

Not a bad guy, just a disingenuous arguer without cause.
An empire is:
n. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
n. The territory included in such a unit.

So without a doubt, the Mongols controlled a vast land empire.
Instead of simply accepting that, you've dedicated many posts to falsely claiming all empires are sea empires.
What that gains you, I don't know.
I mean, are you hoping we all just shrug and say "screw the definition of empire, Smitty has a new one that benefits his argument at the moment"?
... and even if we did that - what do gain?

Genghis Khan and the Mongols still controlled the largest "extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority" on land.
Destroying the word empire doesn't change that.
So - why is the battle happening on this bizarre and pointless hill?

[C-Mag]

Heck, they never defeated Japan, Korea or Vietnam which are all close neighbors.

but that wouldn't have mattered, because taking close neighbours wouldn't amount to an empire

the actual competitors who dominated were all sea powers, the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Dutch

then the French & British beat the Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch at their own games

We barely recognize people called Samnites and Dalmatians today, but those were early competitors of Rome, were crushed, enslaved and extinguished. The Chinese have never extinguished even the Koreans who are hardly a people anymore, and haven't really been an independent state for like 200 years. They should have been an easy mark for Chinese Empire, the Vietnamese too. But China has never been able to pull that off.

Look at the British Empire, they still have everyone speaking English.

[Smitty-48]

off your good name.
/shrug

I'm a bad guy because I define empire by the Roman : Imperium ?

that seems a little harsh

but whatever

Not a bad guy, just a disingenuous arguer without cause.
An empire is:
n. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
n. The territory included in such a unit.

So without a doubt, the Mongols controlled a vast land empire.
Instead of simply accepting that, you've dedicated many posts to falsely claiming all empires are sea empires.
What that gains you, I don't know.
I mean, are you hoping we all just shrug and say "screw the definition of empire, Smitty has a new one that benefits his argument at the moment"?
... and even if we did that - what do gain?

Genghis Khan and the Mongols still controlled the largest "extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority" on land.
Destroying the word empire doesn't change that.
So - why is the battle happening on this bizarre and pointless hill?

whatever, I got nothing more to say about it, the floor is yours

not everything is an argument, I wasn't trying to prove anything

[DBTrek]

Seems to me that Smitty is not redefining the work empire so much as stating that a relevant global empire in the time of modernity was intercontinental.

But the Mongols weren't operating during the time of intercontinental empires.

The Romans were not contenders during the Mongol age... they had fizzled out... and there were not intercontinental empires for the Mongols to compete with.

Asia and Europe, for whatever reason, are separate continents.
Seems like they should get credit for two.
I meant, there are only seven.
And no one really wants one of them.
Two ain't bad for the 13th century.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Just being able to hold the entire continent of Asia, under a common law, practically end crime completely for decades…. It’s pretty stunning.

The Russians have been the dominant power in all of Asia since Peter the Great, 300 years, not a small feat.

I don’t think that you could really draw a line between the Russian Empire, the USSR, and the Russian Federation now…

And that’s certainly not been crime free, like the Mongols kept it

[C-Mag]

Frankly, this is one of the funner discussions I've had at MHF in a while.

What is Empire ? Good question.

[C-Mag]

Just being able to hold the entire continent of Asia, under a common law, practically end crime completely for decades…. It’s pretty stunning.

The Russians have been the dominant power in all of Asia since Peter the Great, 300 years, not a small feat.

I don’t think that you could really draw a line between the Russian Empire, the USSR, and the Russian Federation now…

And that’s certainly not been crime free, like the Mongols kept it

Hey, I watch CNN, Putin is more evil than Ivan the Terrible

I've been studying Slavic history. Slavs are the most underestimated ethnic group in the world.
I'm telling you, there's a huge Slavic Empire out there and the Future is Slavic.

[SuburbanFarmer]

The Russians have been the dominant power in all of Asia since Peter the Great, 300 years, not a small feat.

I don’t think that you could really draw a line between the Russian Empire, the USSR, and the Russian Federation now…

And that’s certainly not been crime free, like the Mongols kept it

Hey, I watch CNN, Putin is more evil than Ivan the Terrible

I've been studying Slavic history. Slavs are the most underestimated ethnic group in the world.
I'm telling you, there's a huge Slavic Empire out there and the Future is Slavic.

Slavs are a disorganized mess for the foreseeable future. I can’t even identify any common cultural themes in the group - though that’s likely a legacy of Stalin.

[DBTrek]

Frankly, this is one of the funner discussions I've had at MHF in a while.

What is Empire ? Good question.

I think it's a good discussion too - just hard to converse when language is in flux.

Wikipedia offers a hand list of empires ranked by the square mileage of the earth they controlled:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires

Mongols in there at #2, right behind the British Empire.
Mongols hit their peak at 1290ish, Brits in 1920.
That means the empire that eventually controlled more of the Earth than the mongols took over 600 years to come into its prime.
Six. Hundred. Years.
Think of the advancements from the 'Age of Enlightenment' and Industrial Revolution alone that took place in that timeframe.
And still - more than six hundred years before they peaked, putting Mongols down to second place.

That's impressive to me. More impressive than "Just grass", and "they weren't naval so not an empire".
It's all personal opinion - but my opinion is the conquest of the Mongols was noteworthy and historic, not some little footnote about some tribes who held a grassy corner lot of some neighborhood.